flush draw paired board - Small Stakes Pot Limit Omaha

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flush draw paired board

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02-12-2013 , 04:42 AM

Bentley

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 600

I tend to get into a lot of trouble on paired boards - should you generally shut down on a paired board or maybe bluff raise the flop?

In this hand villain is a 18/12 type of player.
I have a pair and a fd. I think the flop play is fine, but I am not sure about the turn at all:

[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #16009491

MP: $28.43 (56.9 bb)
CO: $80.39 (160.8 bb)
BTN: $55.53 (111.1 bb)
SB: $101.07 (202.1 bb)
BB: $50 (100 bb)
Hero (UTG): $39.75 (79.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3

Hero raises to $1.75, MP calls $1.75, 3 folds, BB calls $1.25

Flop: ($5.50) A

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $5.25, MP folds, BB raises to $14, Hero calls $8.75

Turn: ($33.50) 3

(2 players)
BB bets $31.99

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02-12-2013 , 05:59 AM

Alienatu

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 906

don't like to cbet that board into 2 players. sizing is too big (2.25$ yields the same results, although not many worse hands call, so i'd rather check)
definetly folding to the raise. why draw to a flush when the board is paired ?

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02-12-2013 , 08:00 AM

trixydixy

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 342

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alienatu

definetly folding to the raise. why draw to a flush when the board is paired ?

I do like to cb but really small like 40%. Easy fold when you get raised!

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02-12-2013 , 11:12 AM

Bentley

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 600

Quote:

Originally Posted by trixydixy

I do like to cb but really small like 40%. Easy fold when you get raised!

except cbetting half the pot will usually be seen as weak anyway and could allow villains to bluff raise back?

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02-12-2013 , 11:36 AM

J17ster

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 372

Virtual potting here with your strong/weak/medium is more expensive in the long-term than half potting with the same range.

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02-12-2013 , 11:48 AM

Alienatu

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 906

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley

except cbetting half the pot will usually be seen as weak anyway and could allow villains to bluff raise back?

i wouldn't worry about getting bluffraised at this limit enough times to make it a losing play. especially multiway.
also, you should have a balanced range for betting with this sizing (same with value and bluffs)

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02-12-2013 , 02:12 PM

Vanhaomena

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,048

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley

except cbetting half the pot will usually be seen as weak anyway and could allow villains to bluff raise back?

If so, then surely you can come up with a way to exploit that, no?

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02-12-2013 , 05:03 PM

Bentley

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 600

Quote:

Originally Posted by J17ster

Virtual potting here with your strong/weak/medium is more expensive in the long-term than half potting with the same range.

Hwang always seems to recommend the pot/pot/half pot strategy...although I can see how this might be useful if the flop pot is 6bbs or less any more than that and it gets risky?

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02-13-2013 , 12:20 AM

Vanhaomena

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,048

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley

Hwang always seems to recommend the pot/pot/half pot strategy...although I can see how this might be useful if the flop pot is 6bbs or less any more than that and it gets risky?

I haven't read his work but I'd assume this is referring to drawy boards (drawy meaning that the nuts are likely to change). Potting early streets on lockdown boards is most often a bad idea.

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02-13-2013 , 03:58 AM

#10

eldodo42

adept

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,026

Hwang indeed recommends betting full pot almost always. Hwang's advice was written for 9-handed live tables circa 2008. It's totally not relevant for online 6-max today. His book has some good info (but you need to pick and choose carefully); bet sizing is definitely not something you want to learn from him. Try "PLO from scratch" or some videos. On the flop here, pick a smallish bet sizing and use it for your whole betting range. I go for around half pot myself.

About the hand: bet/fold half pot OTF. With the size you decided to cbet, definitely fold to the raise.

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02-13-2013 , 12:32 PM

#11

CCJayhawk

centurion

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 175

I'm new to Omaha so forgive me if this sounds dumb.

But isn't this a fold UTG?

Maybe at a passive table where it is limping around frequently we can limp in and try to set over set someone.

Also I'm check folding the turn, are you really trying to rep aces full here? Most villain's at these stakes aren't laying down any 5 and definitely not a boat.

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02-13-2013 , 05:08 PM

#12

eldodo42

adept

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,026

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCJayhawk

isn't this a fold UTG?

Maybe at a passive table where it is limping around frequently we can limp in and try to set over set someone.

I think most regs open this for a raise. The question of which hands are +EV to open is obviously very player-dependent and situation-dependent, and the question of how +EV does a hand have to be for us to bother with it is also valid, but I open this and I expect most people are. You're free to open-fold here and no one will fault you for it.

I think limping is the worst option in most tables in these stakes. It doesn't allow you to steal the pot, it doesn't balance or strengthen your open-raising range, it caps your range in many situations, and you often end up playing a single-raised pot OOP anyway. I'd see some sense in opening for less than 3.5x, though.

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