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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 07-06-2017, 11:19 PM   #1
J.Schinda
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50/100 turn spot.

I am writing to just check my lines against villain.

We are playing a 5k/10k Philippine Peso game (50/100 USD) and villain has me covered. I am about 680 big blinds deep. Villain is an reg from Australia and is very aggressive and throughout the night I have seen him turn hands into bluffs. Bluffing at paired boards when straights and flushes get there and doing a ton of other weird stuff. One particular hand I saw him check/shove the river after flopping trips and not boating up but flush gets there, he then proceeds to show the nut A blocker and trips.

Dealt: 889T

The hand will be posted in USD;

I have position on the villain. The villain is UTG+2 and opens to $350 and I made it $800 from the cutoff. Button and blinds fold. Villain then makes it $2000. I am hating my self from 3betting but because we are so deep, I decided I would call and evaluate the flop.

Flop: KJQ

I check and villain puts out a bet of $4000. I call.

Turn: 8 I check and villain then proceeds to bet 11k. In this spot I am a tad confused. I understand I have second nuts but on the other hand I could be dead to one out. Folding seems rather nitty but then I have no idea what to do on the river as there arent many cards id like.

Would be great if I could get some input from this point onwards.
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Old 07-07-2017, 03:29 AM   #2
TheMVP
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

How are you check-calling when you're in position?

Call turn ofc, what else can you do once you hit the set as well?

Rivers will be tough but I doubt he bluffs a board pair with your line so far. On a diamond you can sigh/fold if he bets and on a blank nobody can tell you what to do, flip a coin.
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:42 AM   #3
monikrazy
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Against opponent described I think turn is a raise for value. I don't think river plays particularly well for hero unless its a complete blank. Board pairing and diamonds are both ugly and hero prob pays off a lot here. I think villain should have kk,qq, kq, kt a lot, and should not have atxx very often unless its aatx (I) will check the math on this in a few days). He may be overplaying ak and aa and/or overvaluing blockers but you need to be really confident villain is routinely spewing off third barrels to prefer calling. If he has kkxx we lose huge value not raising.

Super-deep live situations like this are very rare, so I would not be critical of other lines but I still lean towards raise.
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:27 PM   #4
JB Clark
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

This is such a sick spot. I'm not convinced pre isnt a 3b fold spot. Omaha players dont usually 3b fold like they do in Texas. I dont mind raise/fold pre. I dont mind 3bet either when villains only 4b good AAxx hands, but at this stake and this deep they prob do 4b light, so raise/fold or flat is fine. Raise/call isnt good imo. We are going to have a hard time getting value post flop since the flops thst make us a hand hit our percieved range

As for turn,

On the one hand, its sooo hard for villain to have you crushed. On the other hand its exactly what he is repping. AAKT or AKKTds are two hands that he has in his 4b range. A lot of his pf hands are going to look like this and he never overvalues top 2

I mean we are at the NUT BOTTOM of our call range with 2 streets to go so i do not like calling

680 bb is a lot to get in the middle so im in raise or fold camp but have zero clue what is better

Last edited by JB Clark; 07-08-2017 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:52 PM   #5
monikrazy
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Yea what is going on with position?
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:54 PM   #6
JB Clark
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Villain is leading into hero i think
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:53 AM   #7
naggeri2
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Caaaaaaaaall, we want a rivercard! Bazaammm.
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:15 AM   #8
AveeMaria
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

They're north of $60k deep ott. How could anyone advocate raising here?
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:45 AM   #9
monikrazy
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

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Originally Posted by AveeMaria View Post
They're north of $60k deep ott. How could anyone advocate raising here?
If we can't raise this turn with our hand vs described villain what can we raise? I know its super-deep but I ran some more numbers and I think villain has the nut straight somewhere between 17-20% of the time given what I think his pre-flop range should look like. He should have a diamond draw about 25% of the time. He will have a bigger set or 2p (excluding qj) about 36% of the time.

Overall I just think this is a better spot to push range advantage instead of calling and make some large errors on the river. Its a really interesting spot though. I have played super-deep before but much more often nl hold emthan plo. In plo it can be a lot less profitable depending on stack sizes and position.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:31 AM   #10
AveeMaria
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

So you're raise folding? Or raise calling? What do you do when you raise, he calls and you're facing a pot sized bet on the same rivers you didn't want to make a mistake on by calling ott?
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:55 AM   #11
naggeri2
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Raising is bad but could be terrible.
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Old 07-13-2017, 03:09 PM   #12
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

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Originally Posted by AveeMaria View Post
So you're raise folding? Or raise calling? What do you do when you raise, he calls and you're facing a pot sized bet on the same rivers you didn't want to make a mistake on by calling ott?

Agree stack sizes can be awkward for the river, I think I prefer pot/call and fold if the board pairs but not diamonds, slightly harder decision if its the j instead of a k or q since there are a few combo draws that wouldn't boat up

I'm also not sure if villain is capable of bluffing if ace hits since we have the nuts so often from our turn line so probably fold to that too

I don't think any raise-fold lines make sense since he can jam set+diamonds or set+open ender or same straight we have with redraw if hero raise/folds here, maybe there is a case for less than pot but I still think we are going for max value from kk, if he calls and river is a blank we might just take a free showdown with 2nd nuts

Last edited by monikrazy; 07-13-2017 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:57 PM   #13
BigAisaOK
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

HSPLO nowadays

turn raise...please sttahhhpp.

Seems like a standard call, and probably a fold on the river unimproved.

Turn is closer to a fold than a raise imo.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:42 PM   #14
Adebisi
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAisaOK View Post
HSPLO nowadays

turn raise...please sttahhhpp.

Seems like a standard call, and probably a fold on the river unimproved.

Turn is closer to a fold than a raise imo.
I think turn is a clear call and blank rivers are clear calls. I have no idea what his pf open/4b range looks like this deep, but if I give him all AA/AKQT/AKJT/AQJT*, it's really easy for him to be overbluffing blank rivers with AA. Did some quick PPT work here, and if you give him this range going in to the river, considering your T, if he bluffs any wider than AAA/AA9, you have a profitable river call. I think this guy is probably way wider than that on his AA 3 barrels.

*I realize he probably has some amount of random ATxxds stuff, but I figure he doesn't always 4b every single A-T rundown, so I'm guessing that all comes out in the wash.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:08 AM   #15
Koon93
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Justin,

I had it in that particular hand. You also recalled the hand wrong, I was sandwiched in between you and the UTG. I flat the open and you 3B and I 4B otherwise it all looks fine.

River paired the board but I cant remember which so youll have to chime in.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:42 AM   #16
Try__An__Hit
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Raise turn is so bad
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:11 PM   #17
jdr0317
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Against opponent described I think turn is a raise for value.
Wat.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:45 PM   #18
Doorbread
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

how often does this game run? im filipino. can i play?
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:55 AM   #19
Koon93
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

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Originally Posted by Doorbread View Post
how often does this game run? im filipino. can i play?
Come to Manila
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:49 PM   #20
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

If it's a regular game ok
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Old 07-21-2017, 09:48 AM   #21
smoothcriminal99
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

pretty sure this is a call and call all non diamond/ten/ace rivers. kqj are gross but i would assume given description they are calls as well
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Old 07-21-2017, 05:15 PM   #22
JB Clark
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Re: 50/100 turn spot.

I would fold and rack up for that much money so i'm no help
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