Hey Guys,

I find myself struggling quite a bit in riverspots in plo; when to vb, bluf, blufcatch, give up etc.

In this hand I'm basiclly trying to induce a flopraise with my smallish flop sizing. Besides that I prolly bet this ammount with AAxxss/KKxxss aswell. 1. U guys prefer bigger cb sizing, with both handtypes?

The turn I decide to bet pretty big, I dont really think I accomplish anything favourble by betting turn smaller(or bigger)? Once CO calls my turn bet I put him on AAxxss/KKxxss most of the time, or sometimes a weak 8. I would expect him to raise an 8 most of the time on the flop, but he could flat it in this spot to get some value from the fish in the sb I guess.

River is a pretty mediocre card and I am not sure there is still value in a bet. What do u guys prefer? Comments on all streets welcome.

CO: $681.46 - VPIP: 35, PFR: 27, 3B: 13, AF: 2.7, Hands: 194
BTN: $1263.36 - VPIP: 26, PFR: 19, 3B: 6, AF: 3.8, Hands: 464
SB: $98.72 - VPIP: 63, PFR: 11, 3B: 2, AF: 1.6, Hands: 497
BB: $406.70 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 18, 3B: 1, AF: 9.0, Hands: 233
Hero (UTG): $400.00 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 18, 3B: 7, AF: 3.6

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is UTG with 8 7 6 4
Hero raises to $12, CO calls $12, 1 fold, SB calls $10, 1 fold

Flop: ($40.00) 8 8 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $20.00, CO calls $20, SB calls $20

Turn: ($100.00) 3 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $67.00, CO calls $67, SB folds

River: ($234.00) K (2 players)

c/f seems by a distance your best river option. id prob go slightly larger on flop with my range but its not a big deal, turn sizing seems fine.

Bet flop bigger, b/f river.

What do we do if river is Qc-? Does it become an easy valuebet at that point? Just wanna make sure I dont overestimate the anoyingness(lol) of this particular river.

We basiccly bet the river then to get "value" from AAxx right? If so, look at the spot from his point of view when holding AAxx, we have like zero/very little bluffs in our range, what does he beat once we bet this river? On the other hand we can get a crying call once in while when we bet like 1/4 to 1/2 pot I guess. We then do open our self up to get bluffraised if we do so witch is pretty nasty.

btw not saying we're usually beat here, i just think he has v few hands he'll turn into bluffs and not enough hands we beat that he calls with that we're ahead of his calling range. i think usually it goes chk/ck and we win at showdown.

edit - queen is closer to a vbet, but idk if its close enough.

maybe check turn and if CO didn't bet turn, call all non spade rivers?

as played, on river I think you are bluffing here if you bet. and there is no need to turn this into a bluff.
check and scream one time that he doesn't bet. if he bets, stat to calculate the pot odds. if they are <20% then call, or flip a coin.

next time check turn to save you headace

I think by checking we loose way too much value; esp with the SB fish still in the hand.

I sort of like c/cing river incase villan gets here with NFD/turns something into a bluff

C/C river is very bad IMO, OP never bluffs this spot and isn't even going to value bet in very wide. I agree with Val that as played we should probably be looking to check river with a view to check fold.

That said if we are expecting him to raise his A8xx at some point there is an argument for better river as a bluff if he's a solid reg who is capable of folds.

Fwiw I don't think flop sizing is too bad and think anything $17-21 is fine.

This exactly

Surely if you think that a river bet is most likely a bluff, than you'd call down light? In that scenerio, rather than turning the hand into a bluff, it becomes very much a value bet that would most likely be called.

Being OOP to one player in a 3 way pot, I am not really sure that you want to induce a raise on the flop....if you had been raised by co (or C/R by sb), you are basically making decisions for your stack. Even you flat any raises, SB (if he had c/r) would most likely follow-up, and unless you hit your 9 outer, you can't think that your kicker is any good. If you had been raised by CO, it becomes even worse as you are conceding position, and again, unless you hit your kickers, you are playing a big pot with a small pot hand.

I'd probably c/c the flop. Being 3 handed helps, as co isn't likely to bet light given that sb could well be checking an 8 to the preflop raiser. He is certainly unlikely to bet light twice if his flop bet was called. Given that, I'd c/f a blank turn. If it was checked through the flop, I'd call a sb bet or lead if sb checks again.

As played, I'd probably c/c the river to try and induce a bluff from a busted draw

Vs a 25bb fish I am doing happy dances if i am checkraised, his xr range will be way way way wider then 8xxx.

I don't like labeling specific hands as small pot hands, as it mostly depends on the ranges your up against and your preceived range.

I dont wanna be an ass or anything, but the advice you are giving in this topic seems pretty damn bad or you're just trolling. There's nothing in your posts that show u have basic understandings of plo or poker for that matter. So maybe u should reconsider reacting in highstakes topics.

This is exactly what happend. I checked the river with the intention to fold to a bet. The outcome of the hand made me wonder if the better regs would try to squeeze out some value on the river most of the time in this spot, but I agree its to thin. Thanks guys


CO: $681.46 - VPIP: 39, PFR: 28, 3B: 12, AF: 4.5, Hands: 443
BTN: $1263.36 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 19, 3B: 6, AF: 3.9, Hands: 477
SB: $98.72 - VPIP: 64, PFR: 11, 3B: 3, AF: 1.5, Hands: 623
BB: $406.70 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 18, 3B: 1, AF: 9.7, Hands: 248
[b]Hero (UTG): $400.00 -

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is UTG with 8 7 6 4
Hero raises to $12, CO calls $12, 1 fold, SB calls $10, 1 fold

Flop: ($40.00) 8 8 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $20.00, CO calls $20, SB calls $20

Turn: ($100.00) 3 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $67.00, CO calls $67, SB folds

River: ($234.00) K (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

I think over-pairs are calling here quite often, i don't think its to thin a value bet.

bet like $55 for the values

to #17, theres only one "pure" overpair, and it has to be at least somewhat discounted bc he didnt 3bpf. QQ/JJ and AA are pretty much the same in terms of how they do vs our riv betting range, but psychologically AA is generally perceived as being stronger and therefore most non robots tend to call more often with it than with QQ/JJ.

to #18, that might not be the worst vacuum play, but a) gl balancing it and b) people have gotten pretty good at correctly adapting to tiny river bets.

Value betting AA-KK to get QQ-JJ to call is not out of the question

Value betting QQ might be a little keen however haha

was talking in terms of his calling range, not our betting range. however, its worth noting that vbetting QQ, which you correctly describe as pretty optimistic, is not so very different in this spot from vbetting our actual hand - we basically have the nut worst trips so the only hand we beat with our actual holding but which we lose to with QQ is AA, which as i said, has to be at least somewhat discounted due to his preflop coldcall. Given that, its a bit of a stretch to say that one is a reasonably clear vbet and the other is too optimistic.

LOL...whatever you say, oh grandmaster.

BTW, if you think a short-stack will have a wide c/r range on an 882 flop with no FE after flating a raising preflop OOP in a 3 way pot, then good luck with your 'basic understanding of PLO'.

So what do you put co on after he flats your raise preflop, and raises youe cbet on that flop? And what is your plan if he did raise? Repop and get it in? Fold? call and push on the turn if you don't hit? Call and c/f on the turn if you miss? Please show us some of your basic understanding, oh master.

Having said all that, I do agree with your comment that one ought not to react in high-stake topics unless one has a basic understanding of poker...its such a damn pity that you don't take your own advice on that subject.

Fish with 25bb dont care about who is initial raiser, flop textures, multiway cb's and w/e, then wont fold the NFD or a FD + any overpair for a 1/2 pot cb.... ever.

Hands that aren't terrible to get it in with against sb when he wakes up with a hand.


Call.

And I if he continu's on turn; most of the time not fold.

Fwiw I started the topic, anway gl sir wish u all the best.

Against 35/24 i would bet $100/f. Villain is never gonna bluff in this spot when u bet smallish

1/ Those who are too ready to lable opponents as 'fish', are very often referring to themselves. BTW, learn the difference between a call of a half pot bet, and a CR allin with very little or no FE.

2/ Those who will not fold weak trips OOP when facing strong action, and therefore playing for stacks with a marginal small pot hands are very often fishy.

3/ Those who like to pretend to be high-rollers (ie. asking those who do not share their views to refrine from commenting on 'high-stakes' threads) are very often fishy.

3a/ Now if you were playing 500/1000, you might well have a point. But FFS, at 2/4? I am by no means a high-roller, but when have 2/4 been 'high-stakes'? FWIW, I have played up to 10/20 online, regularly grind at 0.5/1 to 3/6 online, and played HK$1000/HK$2000 HK dollars (albeit I was staked, as that stake is way above my bank-roll) in macau, and regularly grind £5/£5 DC in my local casino.

4/ Whilst you did start the thread, you reacted to my post...when by your logic, you should not reacted given your level of understanding of the game.

5/ My very best wishes to you, my good sir.