The sb plays 64/11.

U realise you're the only one in this topic suggesting to not cb the flop right? Besides that both guys called the flop drawing nearly dead, so i think its prolly fair to say there some value in a flop cb.

I don't care about what stakes someone plays. But I do think when someone posts a comment it should make same sense.

I hope your backer doesn't read 2+2

Okay.

Thanks.

QuadTwos pm me you're name and I'll confirm whether you're telling the truth about the 1k/2k stuff

You should never be getting called here by AAxx on river other than vs the biggest of whles. I think you play it perfectly tbf and got as much value as you could.

You play in macay too? Hi...PM me, and we'll see if we know each-other.

1/ If you think we should always be c-betting weak trips OOP after raising it preflop, when it fits well with villian range, and we are sitting on a decent stacks, then gl.

2/ If you don't care about the stakes, than why did you ask me not to react to 'high-stakes' threads?

2a/ There is a differnce between somthing not making sense to you, and not making sense at all. Maybe it has something to do with your basic understanding of PLO that my comments do not make sense to you.


3/ As a matter of fact, he doesn't...and what is your point? The very rich Chinese businessman is an uncle of a good friend, and was doing as a tip (I was on 50% of the profit for no outlay, my friend on the other 50%) after we railed him for 30 hours at a private VIP room playing very high stakes Banco-punto.

4/ Again, my very best wishes...

I'd bet flop a little bigger, wp though. B/F river (aka bluffing) by default and w/o good reason seems awful.

I don't, but I do in this case for reasons earlier mentioned.

Cause u seem pretty bad at poker.

U realise you're the only in this topic talking defending your(pretty bad) line? Why do you think that is?

[ ] Impressed

Villain can never bluff catch here. You are just taking yourself to value town if you bet river, even on a Q.

wtf is the difference b/t the Kc and Qc?

a) if oppt is not so tough, and thinks in terms of absolute hand strength then we beat another overpair (this doesnt necessarily make sense, but there are still a lot of people who psychologically view KK on Qxx as stronger than JJ even if my range has zero Qx in it simply bc it fits into the "overpair" hand category, and so are more likely to call down with overpairs than underpairs even if their relative hand strength is near identical).

b) hes a little less likely to have called turn with QQ than KK - its more vulnerable, more of our semibluffs have better equity, we can possibly be betting KK for protection etc

c) related to a), if someone thinks we can be vbetting KK (whether or not we actually would) then those times they have AA they can justify a call a higher % of the time bc they beat a portion of our value range

although i think these three differences are all valid, i dont think they add up to enough justification to vbet riv on a queen - a) relies on him not only viewing his hand as stronger, but strong enough, which he might not do, b) deals with how many QQ vs KK he gets to riv with but not what he does with them, and its possible he simply always folds the pair that doesnt make a full house, and c) deals with a hand that the absence of a pf 3b weights his range against - but if you stipulate an oppt with imperfect thought processes, there is certainly some smallish amount of difference.

Considering a), villain will be beating less bluffs having JJ on Qx than KK. Given your stipulation of our pretty narrow bet range for the river this will have a fairly big or fairly small impact, depending of which range people find suitable to bluff the river with. For many of the front agressors on PLO400 with highly unbalanced cbet ranges, I think there's a case for putting in many Qx combinations in the river bluff range. As for the balanced strategy, you're right ofc.

One important aspect of the K river is also the card removal effect. He's now less likely to have KK, which leads him to have 8x more often.

y, thats true, i think we're coming at it from diff perspectives though. my point wasnt directed at whether KK outperforms JJ on Qx vs a range constructed in any particular way, but that some people suffer from a cognitive bias whereby they perceive two hands with identical relative hand strength as differing in value and are more likely to herocall with one than the other.
do i understand your point to be that there will be people in the hypothetical where riv is the Qc who will have cbet flop/barreled turn and will now barrel riv with enough Qx combos to actually make the two hands somewhat different in relative hand strength?

OP , breath & focus , life is happening.

Flop should would could, be a check 50% or so. DEPENDING ON if villains bluffraise / floaty floaty wateva , then we would be more keen to ATTACK and say oh my oh my ill peel one time and hope u dont bet , and secretly inside "muahahahahaha yeees , muahahah yeees"

all the heros here, as pfr are usually kind of betting too much & with not balanced ranges (betting 8s ~too often & bluffing with stupid hands like AKQx that can catch a big 2pairs and win a pot checked trough)

Check , opens door for beautifull things to happen, a small stab + a call , and we can call and "SEEM LIKE WE HAVE OUR KK/AA" & beautifull things happen turn & river

betting is door opener only if there are real sporty guys behind, who take game seriously & try to win all the pots they possibly can (i mean weighted there)

Everything should be done, but random game without sporty sporty i would definately be checking here with our hand

EDIT : [Thought it was 4handed flop] = mayby 75% what i said , and mayby betting a bit more frequent than checking 60/40

@ VN, AB and other guys

Thanks a lot your for the contributions in this topic so far. Reading all your posts with great intrest. VN, u have a great way of putting your thoughtproces very clear on paper, its apriciated a lot.

@rebuy roope

Thanks for posting. I'm having some trouble with understanding your post fully, although I get the big lines ofc. Like I said earlier in the topic. I'm not cbetting this hand even near 100% of the time. If the CO for example would have a high f2cb and high bet when checked to %(BWCT), I would check this hand all day long, just to exploit his flop tendencies to the max. In that scenario we don't really mis value from the fish either, cause CO is likely/ expected to bet so often/with a wide range.

In the actual hand vs actual villains I think, like I said before, checking the flop just looses way to much value, esp with the fish in sb. During the hand I expected the hand to play out quite often like it played it now tbh. Tho I am defenitly aware that I might have an wrong view of my equity vs the 2 ranges in spots like this, and therefor overvalue my hand and equity, resulting in making the wrong flop/turn play. Working on it

Been a while since we've seen this sort of dickswinging!

Btw, validand, there are two good reasons to use hand strength to determine how often to valuebet when the hands are basically identical vs villains range: first, he might either be a super-genius or a massive idiot, not have the range we expect, and call with the middle of our range, leading to an awesome razor-thin valuebet some small % of the time; secondly, we can use our own hand strength as a guide to having a reasonably balanced frequency, i.e. we have 3 ranges on the river, our clear value-range, our not-so-sure range and our bluff range; we cant balance for our bluffs with just our clear value-range, but using all of our not-so-sure range to valuebet would unbalance us as well, so we somewhat arbitrarily say 'i'm valuebetting this strength hand or more' and hey-ho we're magically balanced and sometimes getting thin value and saving ourselves from value-cutting.

I don't understand this thread at all. We bet the flop and got 2 callers. Just from that, the chances that someone else has an 8 are already extremely high. With basically the nut worst 8, I would be checking the turn. If we do decide to bet the turn, we 100% have to check the river. There's one hand we can possibly beat that might call if the other player's terrible (AA), and even that hand is going to be 3-betting most of the time preflop from this aggro of a player.

I dont understand your post at all.

Wrong imo. The SB has virtuelly never an 8 when he just calls my cb on the flop, esp after co called it too. I hope u missed his stacksize, because the sb fish(or anyone for the matter) is never ever flatting the flop oop with an 8xxx hand when there is 80 in the pot and he has 85 behind lol. Anyone raises ai with an 8xxx hand in that spot 99.99% of the time.

So on the turn the only one who can have an 8 is CO imo. He prollly raises an 8 x% of the time on the flop. But besides that there aren't that much 8's in a semi decent agro regs co opencall range anyway. Esp not cause we can discount prolly loades of 8xxx hands cause a 3b range of +-13% ip most likely has a lot of 5678s-89TJ, 4678s-8TJQs etc in it. Obviously the fact that there already 3 8's out of the deck, dicreases the combinations of 8xxx loades . Since there is a fd out there I think the flopcall range of CO consists for the biggest part out of nfd's, high overpairs, pairs+fd, 2 overpair hands(dunno if this villain 3bets them standard in spots like this, for example QQ99s JJTTr, but w/e thats a small part of range anyway).

Pretty sure cause of the above reasons and some others, the turn is a clear bet for value and protection.