Villain is pretty good and aggressive player, c-bets a lot. I'm not sure about his understanding of relative hand value. He stacked off really badly earlier in a spot where he had top and bottom but it was a bad spot for it. At the end of the hand I thought there was something wrong with this line (other than the flop being a little spewy, but I think this deep w/ the blockers + best hand a decent % it's fine) and wasn't sure about a better one. What do ya'll do differently?

Poker Stars $3/$6 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN/SB: $2184.25
Hero (BB): $1395.50

Pre Flop: ($9.00) Hero is BB with T T 8 9
BTN/SB raises to $18, Hero calls $12

Flop: ($36.00) K 4 Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $35.50, Hero calls $35.50

Turn: ($107.00) T (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $102, Hero calls $102

River: ($311.00) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $310.50

not a big fan of the flop play, most of the time you need to fold to a 2nd barrel and the $35.50 is a complete waste. as played flop i would play turn and river same and snapcalling river. i think there is no real other choice given how the hand played out. he could bet worse or be bluffing decent amount of time.

I'd 3bet preflop.

I'd argue that you do not have the best hand a lot on the flop. Actually, your hand is slightly worse than a random hand (****) according to propokertools. This of course doesn't calc in the fact that you can use your blockers to your advantage, but I think its a good point to be made.

As played I'd check/call the turn.

On the river I guess I kinda like a check/call with stacks. If you were a bit shallower, I'd like the c/r.

I would never put myself in this spot because I would always fold the flop.

I'd fold the flop and be calling this river pretty much always. He could easily have K4xx/Q4xx or even AJxx and be going for value.

hes never folding lolllllllll. his question is whether he should raise and i think he should if the guy calls light at all since his line reps dildo

I'd 3-bet pre, flop call isn't so bad if you have a plan for A, J, 9 turns. Hands he will stack off with on the flop and river are way different. Is he potting here with any boat? I'd probably just flat assuming he's likely to fire turn with a set and slow down on turns that give him two pair with a 4 in it.

I would never fold the river, I was talking about the flop. Folding the flop is probably good unless your going to win every time an A or J hits which I don't think will be the case when your read is that he stacks off light.

board: Kh4dQs
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
ThTs8d9h 50.41% 299,817 5,257
**** 49.59% 294,926 5,257

I believe Krmont was saying that the decision on the river is between raising and folding.
I agree with his logic, but in practice at this stack depth think like iggy and just call.
What would we raise it to if we raise. Seems like if I were to bluff, I would make it big. You can almost, but not quite shove. If we raise to 880, call a shove??

wat? its call or raise on river. his point was that villain might look us up with a straight or underfull because it doesn't make sense for us to show up with a fullhouse often the way we played it.

I'd probably just call river starting off unless villain was fishy. I think its a good spot for a raise though with a loose image.

i can't believe i read this thread three times before i realized the river paired the board.

would 3b pre but call is fine, hate the flop call and would check/raise the river.

there could be a whole thread on the flop call and i'd really like to hear jrose's justification in more than one sentence bc having the best hand does almost nothing for us.

I mean I said it was a little spewy, and maybe it's not ideal, but I don't think it's that much worse than neutral EV. i disagree that having the best hand does almost nothing for us. against someone who isn't a monk, when we have the best hand we are gonna get to showdown and take down the pot a reasonably high % of the time after we call this flop. and then there are 10 and J turns when we're good almost always, A, 9, heart turns we can use for blocker bluffs/semi bluffs. i think it's a LOT worse if i've been out of line. having been in line, i like using blockers to my advantage a lot more. if i'd been out of line, i snap fold it.

it's just not a bad board texture for a bit of a float if you can competently play the rest of the hand and not make any huge mistakes. it also helps if you can capitalize on an aggressive opponent and good stack sizes for blocker bluffs (200 bb's are good). i know what you are getting at in that it's never a great idea to be dependent on bluffing/floating/whatever for the rest of the hand, but i don't think it's a complete reliance in this instance because we have the best hand enough to go along with it, and the bottom line is, it's hard to make hands, when you've been in line and you can manufacture wins, it's never a bad proposition.

i'm actually a fan of the OOP float in more spots than most but I don't like it on this board. the thing in favor of it is that as you say we have some coverage of all of the cards that could give someone bluffing the flop a better hand, but i'm more worried about what happens on all the cards 8-, where his checking range is gonna be lots of Q's and K's and turned mediocre draws that have equity + still have the option to take a bet-check-bet fake-value line. Whereas he's gonna be barreling so many of his bluffs because a c/c looks like you can be moved off QJ9 etc, esp if you've been in-line. And you can't underestimate having the non-nuts on all six of your outs to a good hand, especially the T's where he's gonna have a straight like 15% of the time. there's just such a game-theoretic equity tax that comes from being OOP with a hand that is a weaker version of exactly what it looks like and two streets left to play. i'd rather check raise if i'm gonna do something.

btw a random hand has a Q or K 45% of the time on that flop when you don't have either

What's your method for finding the %?

Fold flop, as played call river

Edit: I dont like 3bet pre like someone suggested

Against the villain you described i would never fold here in a million years. Expect to see an underfull that you beat a lot, maybe even a straight.

Also raising river is also a mistake unless the villain is spewiest of spewy villains.

simplest way for this question is 1 - 39c4/45c4; 39c4 being the # of ways to choose a starting hand from the 39 non-K/Q unknown cards and 45c4 the total # of starting hands given seven known cards.

why are you playing 3/6? I thought you crushed 25/50?

Woah, didn't see rivered paired first time around. I wouldn't ever fold here.. bluffs AJ/J9 and worse FH's make up too much of his range.

thanks, thought you might have use someting like that.

flop play is just such pointless spew. on the river if hes the transitioning from nl and doesnt understand hand strength type then this is really easy jam. if hes reasonable a call is fine but im trying to find a way to rationalize shoveling money in.

check the OP date, K.K.

I've managed to make a good arguement for calling, raising and folding in my head. Raising is pretty sick because your not repping anything other than a weirdly played QQ-KK or quads.

I just call though and expect to lose a decent amount of the time since I don't think he is bluffing here a ton unless he is one of those bluffing when he can never be bluffing types after cbetting then repping the straight then repping the boat. I just think the levels look like he has something decent if he is a thinking player