See, here´s the problem: I am not argueing with your read or anything but you should have mentioned that in the op, as tbh: from what it says there these ranges do not make a whole lot of sense vs. someone who is supposed to pretty tight, esp in a live setting.

Looking at the screen of pro poker tools range explorer right now... with my eyeballs, T664, I don't make things up, is yours an optimized run w/ dead cards or raw or somewhere in between?

I can't put together any T:15-30% that doesn't include the hands I mentioned. Yiou want to upload screens and we'll see where the issue is?

The sim is useless because it wasn't done with any accuracy, its not representative of the hands he sees a flop with too sloppy, not because the practice is useless. If you believe what you said to CTS then you know this.

Is my MP and EP mistake important? Yep, I am very forgetful on my own! and I take a lot of medicine for Crohn's disease that doesn't help the fogginess... I forget little details a lot and its annoying and screws up my work sometimes.... But is my personal shortcoming even relevant here!?

I still don't see him opening a lot of hands in that range from MP.

I also never mocked rankings.... I use them for 0-5% all the time, where they are useful and correlate to actual ranges to a higher degree, I use them with a PFR modifier + some extra syntax to capture the hands.... ex. say a 30% PFR opens pre, that range is far more accurate running a top 50% modified to discount out the range elements that don't make sense (like the T665 in this example).

I'm talking about how to apply them because people misapply them all the time, its not a simple clear cut thing.. you disagree? This is recurring problem with my students.

listen I contribute here because I think having a poker community is cool, and I like helping people. I won't argue with you over who is right or wrong, if you want to work on the hand together to solve it, we can do that.

What I wrote will help people, you don't want help, that's fine...its just the obv play for me then is to write you out of existence in my world and ignore, i've seen your analysis, you can't help me, you aren't pleasant in the least, so there's just no reason to associate with you anymore, gl at the tables

T664ds is in the PPT top 30%, but that's not the hand you said. You said T665ss was, and it's not.

He didn't open. He called an open.

I was a t the table w/ rbk for a while and am pretty sure i know who hes talking about as I am a reg in these games and capitol L-O-L at him putting the kid on this tight of range by his button call. He'll play wide on the button including every suited ace on the planet so hands like AsTd2s4c are in there and even KdT86d and the like. rbk you know this is true. Your balls/ willingness to make a read and go with it are commendable but you just spewed in this spot AINC.

i'm saying it because i believe all those hands you're talking about he would 3bet in that spot.
there is just so much value to 3betting in these games....ppl open to 140 you make it 300 just so freaking often and all they ever do is call...and often times you pick up one or two of the blinds and you get to play a nice big pot in position. and everyone generally just checks to you on the flop its great.
there is just no way he's not 3betting almost every hand that has broadway+T in it IMO.

i really don't understand how this is the part of my post that people are taking issue with. how the **** can you argue with me over someones 3bet range you've never played with? thats absurd.
(thats not directed specifically at you holla mostly at the retard that keeps trying to show me PPT simulations that have absolutely no relevance to the conversation).

just for clarification no one is talking about the opener's range we're talking about the kid who called in position then flatted the flop. that was the person i thought i was going to be playing the pot with post flop.

def think you're thinking about someone diff as the kid i'm talking about is never playing AT24 dont even think double suited. never seen him show down a hand like that from any position in any situation. he could have KT86ds sure just like KT89 tho i still think in that situation he's 3betting quite often. even if he does flat with it like i say again the number of combos of hands that have a k or a +T are so much smaller then the ones i beat that its absurd to not try to play for stacks because vs a very small % of his range i prolly have 9 outs. come on.
also just out of curiosity who are you? just like to put faces to names, esp when we've played together.

also while i did say i prolly made a bad flop CR i had pretty good reasons for it and i'm pretty convinced that if the OR didn't wake up with AA and the kid had the ten i was going to win a big pot so not quite sure how it can be labelled spew.

i'm mostly done talking about it esp love the LOL posts "oh man too many words can't read all that" pretty hard to take someone seriously who's attention span precludes them from reading a few paragraphs.

anyways no real point to continue, was prolly -ev for me to even put any of my thoughts out there. we're playing 20//40 and 20/40/80 PLO everyday at commerce come on down and get some easy money from the spewtastic donkey that doesn't even understand simple PPT simulations!!!

ok my last post on this topic just wanted to share a hand i played last night that should show the problem with how you guys are thinking about hands.
you're locked into this static way of thinking about hands and calling ranges etc and not adjusting it based on specific players which will just cost you a ton of value.

i guarantee if i posted this hand with no results and asked about the river play everyone would say obv check back he can never call with worse, but i had played with this guy for 2 days str8 and knew 100% where he was at and that he was calling me on the river no matter what card fell.

i open QJhh73 on button to 300 and villain calls with 10K from the blinds and the straddle calls. villain has 10K i cover. i have a tilty image as i just got 2 outed in a 20K pot and i have been raising a **** ton of hands in position and being very aggro post flop winning a ton of pots w/o showdown.
me and villain have a ton of history, we played HU 10/20 for like a day str8 and i crushed him, he really wants to get me badly.

flop is AhKd7h

chk chk 600 villain calls straddle folds.

turn Td

he chks i snap pot (2100) he hems and haws a bit and calls (fwiw villain is bad and always slowplays his big hands ALWAYS its absurd)

river 2d completing the back door flush.

he checks pretty quickly (has about 6K left)

i shove.

he tanked for like 10mins and called me with AAxx.

this is the perfect example of where live reads and history you have with your opponents trumps theoretical discussion of ranges and all the other types of things you run thru simulations etc.

the most valuable thing you can do at a deep stack live PLO game is pay real close attention to every person at the table.
you shouldn't be playing with a set formula of when you bet/raise/fold etc you should obv understand hand ranges and equities and all that jazz but being able to play completely differently vs every single opponent on the table is what you should really strive for.
i knew this guy had a big made hand (he raises his draws flats his made hands etc) i also knew he wanted my chips soooooo badly i could vb super thin vs him and he's not going to be thinking rationally on the river. he's going to see a **** ton of chips in the middle and want so badly to be able to call and hear me say "you got it" etc thats all he's been dying to do for the past 2 days.

really good live players look like schizo's because they'll vary their play so much based on the info they've gathered on their opponents from paying attention to every hand that gets showdown.

most people don't have the patience or attention span to do it and once they fold they're checking their phone or ipad or talking to a buddy or just spacing out until the hand is over and they get cards again.

easy to do when you have a HUD to check everyone's stats and find out exactly what they play in every position whenever you feel like it, not as easy when you're playing live and its slow as **** and people are tanking in freaking 10bb pots.

i dont think so. its not a snap vb, but more often than not will be. his turn call is putting you on blockers.

the hands are completely different. Your 1st one is misplayed(otf). I get what you're trying to do-trying to make btn think you're semibluffing after villans weak cbet, but stacks are too awkward for this and you raised too much.

bump

lol come on you are really going to tell me that more often then not you can make a PSB on that river and get called by worse often enough to be profitable in a live full ring PLO game.

L-O-L.

i'm mean sure its easy since i posted results. funny tho i talked about the hand with one of the best players on the planet and he said he would almost never VB the river.
but ya can't wait for the string of "oh ldo easiest vb ever"

It feels like you're our dad and you're trying to tell us about the birds and the bees when we're 17 and have had our fair share already.

well this game sounds amazing, but its not cos u rbk

you try so hard to be clever and yet you fail so miserably.

game is amazing.

Great post RBK and I completely agree with what you are saying. I have played a lot of live full ring PLO as well. It is a must to have solid reads on every player at the table, because like you said it is a must to assess every situation based on the player or players involved in the hand as well as your history with the players.

Do you think in the above hand, most players would bet into you if they had made the back door flush or check call with the flush trying to get you to bluff? Obviously, your image at the time plays a big role in their decision.

As far as the first hand you posted, like you have said the mistake was raising the flop OOP because you are basically turning your hand into a bluff vs the villain who had raised one time in the past hour.

As it had already been said over and over, he has AAxx or A10xx pretty much every time.

i think that particular player would open ship if he had the flush there most of the time as he has to assume i'm going to check back almost all of my value range and the pot is so big he just has to hope i make a crying call with my str8/set.