SITUATION

Playing a loose and splashy £10/25 in London last night. Villain A is a long time poker pro based in Austria, steams hard, at that point in the game was on full blown monkey tilt. Villain B is a old school UK pro, used to play a lot on poker after dark, played in Vegas a lot etc, he usually plays pretty darn solid. Has been a little splashier lately. Hero is generally seen as kinda nitty, maybe a little scared money.

HAND

There a limp from Villain B utg+1, I make it £100 with KJJT. Villain A defends out of the BB and Villain B calls also. 3 way to the flop with about £350 in there.

FLOP: 953

Villain A checks, Villain B leads for £250, I flat, Villain A now pots to £1.3k (starts hand with £3.5k effec) Villain B now calls (starts hand £3k effec). Hero calls (Hero covers).

Turn: 953T.

Villain A jams, Villain B calls off and Hero calls off.

Should hero be folding at any point in the hand? If so I guess logically it'd be to the flop pop to £1.3k. Should we be shoving flop?

fold flop
how on earth can you be seen as kinda nitty mr vanhouten, you are splashier than golden states backcourt

Dr Griffin Haha, I like to think I change gears between mid stakes 5 card and high stakes FR, it was even made 10 handed at points last night to accommodate certain fun players so I eased it back to like 7% vpip.

I fold to the repot on the flop

is this how hands normally play out in london? if so I need to go to london asap.

if you're gonna call off 1300 on the flop with your polish flush draw why not at least raise the flop yourself and have some fold equity and possibly get out the better draw/naked set of 3s?

i'm fine with calling the first bet but calling the reraise is pretty terrible.

grunching but im sure everyone has already told you the flop call is terrible. you can call the lead but calling a raise in this spot is just burning money

ya i call the 250 and fold to the 1300 i dont think i ever just raise the lead but I could see it working in certain situations and just commit myself.

I think I'd play against villain A if villain B folded. Given Bs action I think you should fold to the flop CR.

It is pretty terrible for someone to have the NFD and someone else to be ahead of your Jacks.

Sounds like A can have a naked NFD + and B is probably pretty strong here.

You are also not doing that well if one has the NFD and one the wrap.

Tell us what they had in a bit? I am curious.

Mostly depends on player B's limping range. If you think he's technically very good at plo then fold flop. If you don't think his range is well thought out then I'd play it the same.

10/25 live plo is this soft?

wtf this comments... i see everyone is a nit nowadays, but folding flop is bad .

we have a fd, overpair and tons of backdoors vs a tilted player and a random cold call. im calling flop always .

turn, no option, call and hope for the best.

turn is obviously a call that isn't the interesting part of the thread.
the flop-second call is horrendous- it's not about being a nit, it's about not putting in your money bad. and if you're willing to put in 3000 with 300 in the pot with this hand find, then raise the flop yourself and get some fold equity.I'd rather be a "nit" then a little bitch who always calls his stack off.

Took numerous posts but finally someone is seeing the hand the way I did. Now I'm not saying that it's right or wrong but it's good to see someone not just write 'lol fold' or something other comment that eventually becomes kinda irrelevant.

I think it's hard to generate discussion also when you have troll posters (looking at your other content on the site) like borg making tough high stakes decisions out to be easy. Again, I have no idea what stakes PLO you play and you could well be right but looking at your posting history it appears you do like to troll a lot.

My reasoning for calling is that I think villain B cold calling is a big sign of weakness. He doesn't have a hand with any perceived value as he jams himself here if he does. That's why I said that I probably just fold heart turns if he jams etc, could be horrendous but that's where my head was at. The tilted player can be super wide here, he range runs to being as weak as all 9xxx, all 5xxx with gutshots etc. Basically super super wide.

I thought that I can call here and have good equity 3way in spots where the board pairs say the bottom card, or we turn clubs or a Q,K etc. Whether we're risking too much of our stack for these turn spots is definitely up for debate and a large reason to fold hand.

It could be as simple as we have to fold flop because villain B can have nut flush draw but feels weak to me.

I will eventually reveal results but lets see if any good discussion happens before that.

I'm not remotely trolling at all and I've played tons of plo with similar stacks to this one.I also don't think this is that high stakes (not that i ever buy in much bigger than this, and i do play smaller as well- there are just higher plo games running that i don't play in)just bc i just disagree with a lot of people on this site on general poker topics doesn't mean I'm trolling in those or wrong about this hand.It's even funnier when you think I'm trolling when I'm actually on the side most people on this hand.Hell I could be dead wrong about the hand but that doesn't make it a troll.

Why would villian B jam the higher flush draw? He has no fold equity vs A anyway so he might as well hope you come in behind with a ****tier draw and he can possibly fold if the board pairs the turn (much like you say you would if he stuffs a heart turn)I agree he is very unlikely to have a monster made hand unless it's top set+nfd.

Again if you're willing to put your entire stack in with a marginal hand at best why not take the initiative in the hand and get some fold equity especially considering you may get hands with decent equity vs your hand to fold?You're not sitting there with a hand that has great equity against someone who is likely just barreling off with crap.

I mean you can tell me in this hand both guys had lower draws, or a **** two pair and you had decent equity- but vs their overall ranges your equity sucks.And frankly the exactly results are far less important or interesting than the thought process behind the hand or realistic ranges for their hands.

It definitely does help to have backdoor draws with your hand so I'm not disputing that.I think it's the best point you made in your post just now but I still much prefer to be the one stuffing the money in.

Believe me I've played hands like this myself before where I end up call call calling my whole stack off in similar spots like this and win or lose I always feel like an idiot after.Because I NEVER had good equity (at best it's break even) but a decent amount of the time I at least had good fold equity.

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I don't disagree with the hand as played, however it's a close spot and is entirely dependent on how splashy you gauge these individuals to be at the moment. Something that I would think on in this spot before deciding is how often Villain B has the Ace of hearts, given that he limped in UTG+1, and that you consider him to be old school solid.

Let's not forget that Villain B started this when he bet 250 on the flop. His reaction to Mr. MonkeyTilt jamming 1.3 of his 3.5k into the pot OOP via check/raise is probably a less polarizing decision than making the initial bet. Putting what Villain B leads into us with on that flop under a microscope is the best way to look at his range. I don't think he is betting out in that spot with something truly weak like dog**** 2 pair or bare straight draws. What makes most sense are sets, ace high flush draws, and combo flush & straight draws. Villain B doesn't mind flatting the check raise because he's getting it in now regardless, he has very little behind and I'm sure he suspects that MonkeyTilt's turn jam is eminent. So I think you are incorrect in assuming that his cold call on the flop is a big sign of weakness.

And if you are honestly folding every heart turn to this guy, than you should just fold to either the 250 or the 1300 on the flop, that's a no brainer

"woohoo, the biggest degen in hsplo history says its ok to get this in, i KNEW i played it fine!"

Not really close to what I said. I just commented that I'd thought similar in relation to turn equity.

It's a shame in the past you've provided some of the greatest analysis. Now you resort to sitting around waiting to nitpick or troll. Hope it felt good.

To be clear:

1. I didn't say fold to the flop lead, I said fold the flop CR because villain B stuck around.

2. Villain B did not cold call flop.

3. Turn isn't interesting bc you already screwed up and got 1/3 + eff stacks in w/ no nut draws unless you count your JJs and BD straights (which you shouldn't).

Whether or not he has it Villain A is playing his hand like he has 99 or 55 and can squeeze w/ the NFD. Villain B is playing his hand like its a combo draw that given description likely includes the NFD.

So not knowing if your FD is good or if you have the best made hand at this point (on the flop) you want to put 50bbs in on the flop and stack off on what, all turns?

You are getting almost 150 BBs AI before the river without the nuts or any draws to the nuts (excepting 3 Qs)? And you are doing this MW in what is likely FR?

The only way this isn't terrible is if no one has the NFD...

tbf, you have the beginnings of a point in that i originally wrote another paragraph after my hilarious one-liner, then deleted it. i also love a good nitpick, although that must be a soulread on ur part since im pretty sure ive never indulged myself on here. the troll thing ill skip over.

pretty obv why my higher content stuff ceased, same reason as everyone elses. not gonna give away for free what i spend hours thinking about/working on and money testing out.

with the disclaimer that the reason i originally deleted this was bc on reread it came over as quite condescending - its odd to me that you were so happy to find someone who "saw the hand the way i did". reminds me of that episode of House where hes auditioning for new doctors for his team, and really gets along with this one applicant, who sees the word quite similarly to him. end of the episode he fires him, bc "who needs someone who tells me what i already know?" the purpose of posting a hand would seem to me to be getting input from ppl who see the hand differently and evaluating/incorporating their ideas into my own thoughts. to me, you also seem to have a pretty big cognitive bias in that you appeared to give significantly more weight to the opinion of the guy who agreed with you than the several who didnt. that, combined with the "im a victim" tone of your last sentence replying to me hints at some mental leaks that extend beyond this one hand (which, btw, you could get a pretty close answer to in <15mins of lab work). if i was to give you some advice i considered genuinely helpful, it would be

-dont take things personally, or to heart.
-evaluate rather than dismiss ideas that differ from your own.
-do more lab work (i love that phrase, think chicagojoey came up with it?)
-have a sense of humour. seriously, my original post was much better than this wordy preachy prob gonna annoy you even more follow-up.

this shouldn't be too hard of a hand to figure out - come up with some reasonable ranges, throw it into some calculator and you have an answer

I knew there was a little life in the old dog yet just had to coerce it out of ya.

!

So what did it end up with @BigAisaOK

Was this at the Vic?