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| Fight for Poker Rights (PPA) Discussions on actions the Poker Players Alliance and individual poker players are taking to advocate for poker rights at the local, state, and federal levels. |
11-09-2008, 07:00 PM
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#181
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old hand
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,212
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadMoneyDad
This happens every change of administration. If you move back the date then the final regs simply come out 30 days sooner. Clinton finalized a ton that the Bush admin had to work to reverse, just as Bush 41 passed that Clinton's team worked on.
D$D
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BUT, keeping the comment periods out of the lame duck period would allow voters to punish the party making what are controversial/vote-losing regulations. Simply put, important everyday government responsibilities and functions are subjected to partisan screwing that would not otherwise happen IF voters knew about them in time to sway votes. As it stands now every outgoing presidency flips a big fat finger at the incoming administration and the country this way.
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11-09-2008, 07:27 PM
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#182
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veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,524
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by permafrost
You are confusing the UIG definition with the "bet" definition. In the "bet" definition, non-betting fantasy/educ. games are very clearly defined. Follow those defined rules and Congress says fantasy isn't betting nor UIG. You are done.
Don't follow rules or fall under another bet category, and you must look at the lawful exclusions in the UIG definition to see if that bet fits. Finding an exclusion means it's state/tribal/IHRA authorized and lawful. A company accepting bets will need to be authorized/licensed and following age/location rules to avoid restricted transactions. Not finding a lawful exclusion is bad, as you already reminded us.
Read the "bet" def. again if you think poker bets aren't covered due to some magic carpet, quasi-legal, skill, gray area or other weak theory. Getting poker bets a nice exclusion(s) from betting/UIG is needed, and soon.
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It does not mean paying a fee to participate is not betting, simply it is not considered a "bet' or "wager" as defined by UIGEA.
Yes, they have defined parameters, thus the Federal Trade Commision standards apply (skill games subsection of the sweepstakes rules.
Also, you are forgetting, "contests", in your answer, specifically from UIGEA:
`Sec. 5362. Definitions - ←→
`In this subchapter:
- ←→
`(1) BET OR WAGER- The term `bet or wager'--
`(E) does not include--
(ix) participation in any fantasy or simulation sports game or educational game or contest in which (if the game or contest involves a team or teams) no fantasy or simulation sports team is based on the current membership of an amateur or professional sports organization (as those terms are defined in section 3701 of title 28) and that meets the following conditions.......
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=h109-4954
obg
Last edited by oldbookguy; 11-09-2008 at 07:34 PM.
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11-09-2008, 10:45 PM
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#183
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enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 72
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
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11-09-2008, 11:11 PM
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#184
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gold Bugs, One microbe at a Time
Posts: 8,944
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by famousanus03
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" Any regulations that are being imposed for "overtly political" reasons stand to be swiftly withdrawn."
Whoever wrote this article either misunderstands the word swiftly when it comes to regulatory changes or does not realize the procedures required. They may eventually be replaced but will remain in effect for a very long time if the past quoted timelines for their implementation are accurate. Even new regulations would still need to comply with the law as passed by congress. A successful court challenge may be the quickest method.
Jimbo
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11-09-2008, 11:17 PM
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#185
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veteran
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere on the Strip
Posts: 2,359
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
The two things are apples and oranges. What the new Administration is looking at are executive orders and policies. The regulations we're expecting are the result of legislation. These aren't going to be turned over by Executive Order Number One.
No matter how bad the law, it's still a law.
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11-09-2008, 11:31 PM
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#186
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gold Bugs, One microbe at a Time
Posts: 8,944
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack
The two things are apples and oranges. What the new Administration is looking at are executive orders and policies. The regulations we're expecting are the result of legislation. These aren't going to be turned over by Executive Order Number One.
No matter how bad the law, it's still a law.
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Well stated, even Obama doesn't seem to realize he cannot overturn a law by an executive order:
“I would call my attorney general in and review every single executive order issued by George Bush and overturn those laws or executive decisions that I feel violate the constitution,” said Obama
http://blogs.reuters.com/trail08/200...nt-obama-says/
Nor is the Executive branch charged with determining the constitutionally of a law passed by Congress and signed by a President. That authority rests with the Judicial branch. Didn't he teach constitutional law?
Jimbo
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11-09-2008, 11:34 PM
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#187
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veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,524
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack
The two things are apples and oranges. What the new Administration is looking at are executive orders and policies. The regulations we're expecting are the result of legislation. These aren't going to be turned over by Executive Order Number One.
No matter how bad the law, it's still a law.
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Exactly, unless they are published after Nov. 20, 2008 thus taking effect after the new administration takes office.
Other options do exist, provided this issue is even on Obama's teams agenda.
obg
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11-09-2008, 11:40 PM
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#188
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veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,524
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Well stated, even Obama doesn't seem to realize he cannot overturn a law by an executive order:
“I would call my attorney general in and review every single executive order issued by George Bush and overturn those laws or executive decisions that I feel violate the constitution,” said Obama
http://blogs.reuters.com/trail08/200...nt-obama-says/
Nor is the Executive branch charged with determining the constitutionally of a law passed by Congress and signed by a President. That authority rests with the Judicial branch. Didn't he teach constitutional law?
Jimbo
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Executives orders only, yes.
While laws themselves cannot be simply overturned seems many or most laws passed during the Bush administration were acclompanied by "signing" statements or rules of intrepretation on how they should / should not be followed according to Bush, these quasi "laws" or statements can be over turned by his views.
signing Statements Bush:
http://bushsigningstatements.com/
obg
Last edited by oldbookguy; 11-09-2008 at 11:45 PM.
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11-10-2008, 06:20 AM
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#189
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grinder
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 578
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Whatever happened to Alfonse Damato. I thought he was going to be the savior of online poker. Did he just collect a paycheck and run? Useless
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11-10-2008, 06:50 AM
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#190
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rosetta Stoned
Posts: 5,536
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by joedot
Whatever happened to Alfonse Damato. I thought he was going to be the savior of online poker. Did he just collect a paycheck and run? Useless
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I'm curious to hear how you think he could have stopped development of the regs. Perhaps the PPA should hire you as a consultant.
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11-10-2008, 10:29 AM
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#191
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veteran
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere on the Strip
Posts: 2,359
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Re: signing statements
These seem to have become a real part of the Bush legacy. When did this become common practice and can someone point to this practice in the Constitution?
I thought Congress passed laws and the Administration executed the laws, not as a quasi-judicial branch.
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11-10-2008, 10:57 AM
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#192
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gold Bugs, One microbe at a Time
Posts: 8,944
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack
Re: signing statements
These seem to have become a real part of the Bush legacy. When did this become common practice and can someone point to this practice in the Constitution?
I thought Congress passed laws and the Administration executed the laws, not as a quasi-judicial branch.
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Signing statements began in 1803. The absolute number and effect of Bush's signing statements is overblown, most of them are just honorable mentions of cool little sayings, like a greeting card.
Jimbo
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11-10-2008, 11:43 AM
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#193
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banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,694
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
In case nobody has posted it yet, from the PPA today:
Just one week after a historic election the Poker Players Alliance is pitted in a fight to keep anti-Internet poker regulations from being enacted and we NEED YOUR HELP!
The current Administration is hastily finalizing a number of “midnight rules” before they leave office and the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) is on the list. See the 11/06 story in Dow Jones. Just like UIGEA was snuck into legislation in the dark of night in 2006, our opponents are again trying an 11th hour sneak job. We need you to help us expose and stop this reckless rulemaking.
Please call the U.S. Federal Reserve and tell them not to approve the UIGEA regulations -- Consumer Complaints, 888-851-1920 or Public Affairs, 202-452-2955.
Tell them:
• The federal agencies responsible for our nation’s economy should not be focused on Internet poker regulations.
• Finalization of the UIGEA rules will add additional burdens on our already crippled financial systems.
• Internet poker is a game of skill and form of recreation for millions of Americans; it should be exempted from the UIGEA.
• Please do not finalize the UIGEA regulations until their impact on our banking systems and average Americans has been fully studied.
Tell us how the call went by clicking here.
Your call will make a huge difference and will add the public’s voice to these last minute policy decisions our government is poised to make. We can’t stand idly by while they make decisions that will impact our right to play America’s card game. PLEASE CALL TODAY!
Proud to play,
Alfonse D’Amato, Chairman
Poker Players Alliance
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11-10-2008, 01:06 PM
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#194
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Syracuse
Posts: 26,757
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
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11-10-2008, 01:15 PM
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#195
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 15,502
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Re: Treasury Finalized UIGEA Regs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevmath
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Those guys sound smart. Is there any reason why all four of the documents listed there are in favor of stopping this from happening? Not sure exactly what site this is, but itd be nice if there was nothing submitted to them in favor of these regulations.
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