Fighting for a change in state gambling regulations - Poker Players Alliance

dugthefish · 11-11-2011, 07:19 PM

Hey all. Not 100% sure that this is the correct forum for this, if not could a mod please move to the correct forum.

I have been running a very successful home poker game for several years. We started off playing $5 tournaments, and have graduated up to the point that my home game plays slightly smaller than the $1/2 game at the casino 20 minutes down the road.

My problem is that, by state laws (Iowa), my game is illegal. Iowa state gaming law allows for social gambling between individuals as long as certain issues are complied with.
These include:

***Bona fide social relationship (covered, all my players are friends or friends of friends)

***The game is fair and honest (LDO, the game wouldn't be running 5 years if it wasn't on the level. I take pride in running a clean game)

***No rake/house compensation/entry fee (a few years ago I took a small rake to help pay for building a new table, but stopped once I found out that it was a big no-no)

***All players have the option to deal (self-dealt 100% of the time)

***No participant wins or loses more than $50 in a 24 hour period.

This last one is where I run into illegality. The game has grown to a level that the masses have asked for. Even in a $.25/.50 No Limit cash game, it is impossible to keep inside the law here. If I am to keep to the legal standards, players would only be able to buy in once, and they would have to cash out as soon as they double up. The game would last 20 minutes.

I would like to appeal to the powers that be to increase the dollar amount of allowable wins and losses. I can't see a reason that the win/loss threshold couldn't be more like $200-250.

Bottom line is I want to run a quality home game that is legal in my state, without having to drop my stakes down to the point that no one will play. What would be a good first step in trying to get this law changed? Should I contact my state congresswoman? State senator? Someone in the state Racing and Gaming Comission? Or should I just not waste my time, and keep my game underground and hope I never get busted?

Skallagrim · 11-11-2011, 10:10 PM

dugthefish, you should contact every single one of your state representatives and see if you can find one willing to introduce legislation. I suspect there has been a fair amount of inflation since this Iowa law was passed and you should tell the representatives that your reason for contacting them is precisely because you want to keep the law up to date and prevent unknowing Iowans from turning their otherwise legal home game into a game that must be raided.

I also suggest you contact the PPA at http://theppa.org/contact/ and volunteer to try and get other Iowans to support you. And spread the word among your friends and ask them to ask their friends to help. The more folks that can be gathered to in support, the more representatives for constituents to contact.

I have no personal knowledge at this moment upon which to judge the chance of success of this effort in IOWA. But it certainly seems like a valid effort to me and I will do what I can to help as will others at the PPA who can give you far more specific help than I can.

Skallagrim

Doc T River · 11-12-2011, 06:41 AM

Before you write, I'd check to see if your state legislature is in session. I wrote mine about online poker, but it was while they were in special session and I never heard a thing. I'd think you'd have a better chance at a response if you wrote when they're in session.

I also wrote my governor and my attorney general. Again with no response.

Skallagrim · 11-12-2011, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc T River

Before you write, I'd check to see if your state legislature is in session. I wrote mine about online poker, but it was while they were in special session and I never heard a thing. I'd think you'd have a better chance at a response if you wrote when they're in session.

I also wrote my governor and my attorney general. Again with no response.

I wish I knew more about Iowa specifically.

In my state (New Hampshire) actually contacting and speaking with a state representative is relatively easy. Speaking with a state senator is little more difficult, but far from unlikely.

What dugthefish wants is a live chat, preferably in person but over the phone will also work. He explains to his rep that he is a constituent and that he has a particular concern and wants his rep to introduce legislation to update and correct a simple issue. Iowa law in general is pretty favorable to poker (when compared to many other states anyway) and since the poker games are already legal, simply upping the maximum amount a little to adjust to modern reality would hopefully be seen more as a "book keeping" matter rather than a significant change in policy.

And it would be a simple bill to write. I am happy to write it if dugthefish can find a legislator willing to introduce it.

Skallagrim

dugthefish · 11-12-2011, 12:28 PM

I had a bit of a back-and-forth with my district's rep a while back. I sent her a copy of a PPA form letter regarding online poker, and she came back with a neutral-to-favorable respones. I will try and contact her and the rep from the district next door.

Quote:

What dugthefish wants is a live chat

This is probably a good idea. I was just going to send out a few emails and see what happened, but this is better IMO. I believe the assembly is in session, so it may be a while before she comes home. I will keep you updated, and I would for sure take you up on your offer to write a bill.

Thanks for all the help. Let me know if you think of anything else!

dugthefish · 11-12-2011, 01:36 PM

I just remembered that Iowa had an online poker bill come up last year. I found a couple of the bill's supporters, and composed an email to send them and the representatives in my area. Please add your thoughts before I send it out.

Quote:

I am writing to you to today to ask you to introduce a bill to update current Iowa Gambling law regarding poker and other games of skill, specifically section 99B.12, subsection 1g.

Current Iowa law provides that no participant of a legal game of skill may win or lose more than $50 in a 24-hour period. Although I have been unable to determine when this law was enacted, I believe it is sufficient to say that it is outdated. Due to inflation, and the explosion of popularity of poker games, a $50 cap on wins and losses makes it virtually impossible to play a home poker game of reasonable stakes while staying within the law.

As an example, many people in my area play home poker tournaments where participants buy in for $25. Almost anyone can afford $25 for an evening of entertainment. In order to keep games manageable, I (and many others) use standard casino rules and payout matrixes. In a standard casino tournament, roughly 20% of the starting field wins money. In the above tournament, if 20 people play, there is $500 in the prize pool. The winning player generally wins about 40% of the total prize pool. $500 * .40 = $200, which under Iowa law, makes this $25 tournament illegal.

I propose raising the current $50 cap to a more reasonable $250 cap. With this larger cap, many Iowan's who play in home games such as the one's I play in will be able to have a completely legal game, without the worry of being raided by the police for illegal gambling. I would hasten to guess that many Iowan's are completly unaware that the game they play on their kitchen tables is illegal. Setting the cap at $250 would allow these games to continue, while still disallowing high stakes games with thousands of dollars on the table (which should be confined to casinos for security purposes).

An added benefit of this cap increase would be increasing the visibility of Iowa poker in general. Since Iowa allows poker games to be spread at it's casinos, it benefits the state if more people are playing. More local home poker games = more total players = more Iowa players in Iowa casinos = more out of state players in Iowa casinos = more Iowa tax revenue.

I thank you for taking the time to read this, and look forward to your reply

Skallagrim · 11-12-2011, 02:09 PM

dugthefish, that is an excellent letter. I would not change a word.

I would only add at the end " and I would be particularly interested in speaking with you directly on this issue as it of some concern to myself and my friends, all voters who enjoy our friendly game of poker. Please also tell me the best method to arrange such a conversation."

Nice work. But I think you should still contact the PPA. I do not know myself how much additional support we can provide, but every bit will help.

Skallagrim

Doc T River · 11-12-2011, 02:20 PM

I know the new cap you're proposing is five times the old, but I'd go to ten times.

dugthefish · 11-12-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc T River

I know the new cap you're proposing is five times the old, but I'd go to ten times.

What is your reasoning for that? Negotiating purposes? I thought of that, but I don't want them to worry that by increasing home games they might draw players away from the casinos. With a $500 cap, it would be feasible to run a 1/2 game. Maybe I'll bump it up to $300. TBH its rare that anyone wins or loses more than $200 at my .25/.25 game.

And to Skall, I will add that last line for sure. Going to casino now, I'll check back here before I send it and see if there was any other feedback.

Thanks guys!

ChaosReigns · 11-12-2011, 04:22 PM

I agree that you should go with asking for a five hundred dollar cap as a negotiating tactic and so the cap will not have to be raised due to inflation for many, many years.

It is much easier to negotiate down than to try to negotiate up.

dugthefish · 11-12-2011, 08:34 PM

Quote:

I am writing to you to today to ask you to introduce a bill to update current Iowa Gambling law regarding poker and other games of skill, specifically section 99B.12, subsection 1g. I have chose you and of your collegues because you either supported legalizing online poker, or are a legislator in my area.

Current Iowa law provides that no participant of a legal game of skill may win or lose more than $50 in a 24-hour period. Although I have been unable to determine when this law was enacted, I believe it is sufficient to say that it is outdated. Due to inflation, and the explosion of popularity of poker games, a $50 cap on wins and losses makes it virtually impossible to play a home poker game of reasonable stakes while staying within the law.

As an example, many people in my area play home poker tournaments where participants buy in for $25. Almost anyone can afford $25 for an evening of entertainment. In order to keep games manageable, I (and many others) use standard casino rules and payout matrixes. In a standard casino tournament, roughly 20% of the starting field wins money. In the above tournament, if 20 people play, there is $500 in the prize pool. The winning player generally wins about 40% of the total prize pool. $500 * .40 = $200, which under Iowa law, makes this $25 tournament illegal.

I propose raising the current $50 cap to a more reasonable $500 cap. With this larger cap, many Iowan's who play in home games such as the one's I play in will be able to have a completely legal game, without the worry of being raided by the police for illegal gambling. I would hasten to guess that many Iowan's are completly unaware that the game they play on their kitchen tables is illegal. Setting the cap at $500 would allow these games to continue, while still disallowing high stakes games with many thousands of dollars on the table (which should be confined to casinos for security purposes). This larger cap would also allow some room for inflation, so that the cap will not have to be raised again for many years.

An added benefit of this cap increase would be increasing the visibility of Iowa poker in general. Since Iowa allows poker games to be spread at it's casinos, it benefits the state if more people are playing. More local home games = more total players = more Iowa players in Iowa casinos = more out of state players in Iowa casinos = more Iowa tax revenue. For reference purposes, a home poker game playing the smallest casino-sized stakes would need a cap of at least $1000 to play, so you can be assured that Iowa casinos will continue to spread the largest available legal games.

I am glad that I live in a state that allows me to play my favorite game. On the whole, the Iowa gambling laws are very favorable to poker. A small bump in the win/loss cap is more of a book keeping matter than it is a change in policy. I have also included a link to Iowa Gambling Law here: http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Iowa/

I thank you for taking the time to read this, and look forward to your reply. I would be particularly interested in speaking with you directly on this issue as it of concern to myself and my friends, all voters who enjoy our friendly game of poker. Please also tell me the best method to arrange such a conversation.

This is the final message I have sent to 8 state lawmakers. Thanks for all the input, and I will post replies and new info ITT as it becomes available. And I will contact the PPA as Skall suggested.

**PokerXanadu** · 11-13-2011, 12:07 PM

Great work! I'm taking your idea to my Florida state representative for a similar change to Florida statutes:

Quote:

Dear Representative Hooper,

As a resident of District 50 in Clearwater, I am writing to ask you to introduce a bill in the Florida legislature to update current Florida gambling law regarding penny-ante home games of poker and similar skill games, specifically section 849.085 of the Florida statutes.

Current Florida law provides that no participant of a legal penny-ante game may win more than $10 in a single round, hand or game. Although I have been unable to determine when this law was enacted, I believe it is sufficient to say that it is outdated. Due to inflation since the enactment of this statute, the $10 cap makes it virtually impossible to play a recreational home poker game of reasonable stakes while staying within the law.

As an example, it is usual to play a home poker tournament where the players buy in for $25 each, with seating for 20 players – which is two tables to start. Almost anyone can afford $25 for an evening of entertainment. It is standard practice to award the prize pool in a poker tournament to about the top 10 to 20% of the entrants, in order of finish (poker tournaments are played until all players but one lose all their tournament chips). In this example, there is $500 in the prize pool with prizes for the top four players of $200 for first, $100 for second, $65 for third and $35 for fourth.

Under Florida law, this tournament would be illegal. In fact, you couldn’t legally run such a home game tournament with much more than a $1 per person buy-in. Certainly this is an unreasonable cap today, especially considering the current popularity of poker.

I propose changing the current $10 win cap to a more reasonable $100 maximum bet or buy-in. With this larger cap, Floridians who play in penny-ante home games will be able to have a completely legal game, without the worry of being raided by the police for illegal gambling. Changing the cap in this manner would allow for legal penny-ante games, while still disallowing the higher stakes games, that are better suited to licensed cardrooms for security and regulation purposes, to be played in home games.

Specifically, I ask that legislation be introduced that changes the wording of Statute 849.085(2)(a) to the following:

“(a) "Penny-ante game " means a game or series of games of poker, pinochle, bridge, rummy, canasta, hearts, dominoes, or mah-jongg in which the wager of any player in a single round, hand, game or tournament does not exceed $100 in value.”

Having a realistic cap would have the additional benefit of a reasonable and clear definition for Florida poker players of which stakes they are allowed to play at home and which stakes they are required to attend a licensed cardroom to play. Since nearly every recreational home game currently played for money is illegal under the current $10 cap, enforcement of the law is close to non-existent in the state as it is too difficult to distinguish between a friendly social game and an underground commercial game. The new $100 cap would help law enforcement to know what poker games outside the cardrooms are prohibited as well as give players a clear guideline to the proper restrictions for their social home games.

I thank you for taking the time to read this, and look forward to your reply. I would be particularly interested in speaking with you directly on this issue as it of concern to myself and my friends, all voters who enjoy our recreational games of poker. Please also tell me the best method to arrange such a conversation in person.

dugthefish · 11-14-2011, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

Great work! I'm taking your idea to my Florida state representative for a similar change to Florida statutes:

I love it! I'm glad I could inspire you, brother!

I wish I would have thought of the lack of enforcement angle you found. Wow, Florida is worse than Iowa. $10? I would think you have a very good chance of getting something done, seeing as how your assembly has pro-poker vibe going. I find out who the representatives on point for legalizing no limit poker were and forward that to them, as well.

Good luck, my friend. I'm hope you will keep me posted.

**PokerXanadu** · 11-14-2011, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugthefish

I love it! I'm glad I could inspire you, brother!

I wish I would have thought of the lack of enforcement angle you found. Wow, Florida is worse than Iowa. $10? I would think you have a very good chance of getting something done, seeing as how your assembly has pro-poker vibe going. I find out who the representatives on point for legalizing no limit poker were and forward that to them, as well.

Good luck, my friend. I'm hope you will keep me posted.

For the moment I don't think going to the politicians who promoted no limit poker legislation is a good move. They were advocates for the licensed cardrooms and may see this as competition. I'll see how far I get with my district rep first, and find some other players who will do the same.

Good luck to you as well. I'll definitely post more when I have something to report. PM me if you want to discuss any of the goings on or bounce some ideas.

ChaosReigns · 11-14-2011, 10:14 AM

Good luck. At least your states have allowances for social gambling. Mine does not.