Everyone else has done a pretty good job of responding and making all the points I would have made, especially Kneel.

The only thing I'll say to Toro is just say what you actually mean if you don't want a bunch of us jumping all over you. "That's why the Pats can't win in the playoffs" DOES NOT MEAN "that's why the Pats have lost the last two years in the playoffs".

You're actually wrong either way you meant it, as Kneel pointed out, but if you just say what you actually mean next time, at least we can argue the right point.

More lecturing by goodie, what a surprise

Nobody is failing to understand that.

What I'm failing to understand is somehow people telling Toro he is now proven wrong that with this D they cannot win in the playoffs when the playoffs haven't even started. That makes even less sense than failing to understand how the better team can easily lose in a one game series.

The defense stills basically stinks imo. Just because recently they've kept some mediocre teams, some of which were starting their backup QB's, from scoring a lot of points doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies like it apparantly does for some posting itt. (The win against the Jets being the only recent game I felt was really a quality win.)

I've already changed my tune a bit about their chances to reach the SB though, after someone itt challenged me to find another team in the AFC that are significant favorites over the Pats. I realized then that there isn't a team in the AFC that the Pats don't have a realistic chance of beating, even with this D.

But that doesn't prevent me from realizing the D is still a significant liability against good teams, nor does it prevent me from being dissapointed that they wasted so many resources trying to rebuild the D and have gotten very poor results.

Typical response from you Toro. I guess you just aren't capable of a worthwhile discussion with a back and forth component to it. Good luck with that.

so basically you're only counting some results (games vs mediocre teams don't count, even if we hold the KC offense to the same effectiveness that the Steelers do), and handwaving away other solid results vs good offenses (like vs the Cowboys), and instead will just wait until they play 1 bad game and you'll say "I told you so!!!"

I don't think that Toro has suddenly been proven wrong, he was completely wrong all along. It's painfully obvious that the sample size is WAY too small to make any judgements on whether this team can win in the playoffs. Not to mention that they have beaten plenty of playoff teams in the regular season the last two years so I'm not sure how someone can make the leap that they can't beat those same teams in the playoffs.

And your definition of very poor results differs greatly from mine. They are still 32-13 over the last three seasons and 22-6 over the last two seasons. Yes, they haven't won the two most important games they've played and that's very dissapointing but "very poor results" is laughable.

No, I already mentioned earlier itt that don't have any intent of saying "I told you so." I realize that holding my current position would essentially put me in the position of being able to say "I'm right, you're wrong" unless they win the SB - which is obviously unfair and an unrealistic expectation due to how hard it is to accomplish.

I only was able to watch the 4th quarter of the Cowboys game, and I wasn't particularly impressed.

I'm talking specifically about the results of their attempting to rebuild the D. Just take a look at their recent drafts and free agent signings and it's pretty clearly a failure considering the resources they've used.

But you can't look at the D in a vacuum. The offense they've put together affects the resources they are able to bring in on the defensive side of the ball and clearly offense has been the focus.

You have to look at the whole product at the end of the day. And that product has been pretty damn good.

That's complete BS.

Really? How is that? I'm not saying they haven't made some mistakes with the players they've brought in or that they've drafted but literally every single team in the NFL makes tons of mistakes in that regard as it's a high variance enterprise. But tell me how focusing on offense (drafing gronk and hernandez and two running backs this year) hasn't affecting the ability to use those picks on the D?

They've used quite a few picks on D along with several FA signings/trades that haven't worked out.

Obviously but you do realize that every player is not going to work out, right? I think they've sprinkled some pretty good pick ups in there as well. Obviously McCourty was a good pick. And it looks like Andre Carter has worked out pretty well so far. I even think Arrington has been a good addition (not a great player but has done some good things).

But you have to see that because quite a few of their high picks have been on the offensive side of the ball, that affects the ability to pick up more defensive players.

They also got a bit unlucky with Ras I Dowling being hurt all year, we really don't know if he could have been a contributor (second rounder).

Since 2007 they've drafted the following defensive players in the first 3 rounds:

1st: McCourty, Mayo, BMW
2nd: Wheatley, Dowling, Cunningham, Spikes, Chung, Brace, Butler
3rd: Crable, McKenzie

That's 12 picks on D in the first 3 rounds which is a lot. Mayo and McCourty are good, Chung is ok, Spikes is passable to maybe ok, Dowling we don't know, and the rest are failures.

I agree Carter has worked out well along with the other DL from Chicago. Fat Albert didn't but I wouldn't argue with the small risk they took. The dude from the Jets sucks. Burress (I think that was his name - the trade from Oakland) was horrible along with the veteran safety they also signed last year, resigning TBC didn't work out. Extending the CB they cut this year didn't work out, but maybe that was an injury issue. A Thomas was horrible.

All in all a lot of resources and pretty bad results.

Two things:

First, Although I don't know for sure at all but this draft record doesn't seem too horrible to me. They hit on 2 out of 3 first rounders and even the third wasn't a total bust. I wasn't a big fan but the guy did make a pro bowl. My guess, and I absolutely could be wrong, is that most teams have similar or even worse results over the same span.

Second, you keep talking about bad results. The only results that matter are winning games and they've done that most of the time. Yes, statistically, they have a terrible D but they are still winning games so being critical seems a bit silly.

Great bump of Debo's quote. Yeah, he was dead on with that one. haha.

Idle thought: Has goodie ever let anybody get the last word on 2p2?

Who does? I certainly love to argue, I don't deny that. But seriously, if someone responds to a point I've made, isn't it my responsibility to respond in kind? I have certainly admitted I was wrong on here if that's what your getting at (something that you fail to do).

orlovsky in for the colts

I've been posting for a while, "I've got to think the threads about the other first-place teams in this league just CAN'T be dripping with negativity the way this one is...", for a while now. Tonight, I finally checked out the other threads, or at least the most recent 40-50 posts in each (starting with the most recent):

COWBOYS: Fans are frustrated that Dez B isn't better, hopeful that injured FB returns soon. No real optimism nor pessimism.

PACKERS: First three posts I saw, say it all:
No mention of "We can't win in the playoffs because of our league-worst defense."

49ERS: Calculating division-clinching scenarios, reassuring themselves they've locked up the 2-seed, and helping an out-of-towner get to Candlestick via BART. Not a care in the world here.

RAIDERS: "Carson" is getting better and better each week! Our D is inconsistent. We're in great shape to win this division!

STEELERS: No posts ITT since the win over Pats on Halloween.

RAVENS: Even worse than Steelers thread, only ONE POST ALL SEASON, and it was in September! BTW, it's jist was, "Our team sucks!".

YTF, Rick Pitino said it better


"Larry Bird is not walking through that door, fans. Kevin McHale is not walking through that door, and Robert Parish is not walking through that door. And if you expect them to walk through that door, they're going to be gray and old. What we are is young, exciting, hard-working, and we're going to improve. People don't realize that, and as soon as they realize those three guys are not coming through that door, the better this town will be for all of us because there are young guys in that (locker) room playing their asses off. I wish we had $90 million under the salary cap, I wish we could buy the world. We can't; the only thing we can do is work hard, and all the negativity that's in this town sucks. I've been around when Jim Rice was booed. I've been around when Yaz was booed. And it stinks. It makes the greatest town, greatest city in the world, lousy. The only thing that will turn this around is being upbeat and positive like we are in that locker room... and if you think I'm going to succumb to negativity, you're wrong. You've got the wrong guy leading this team."

I couldn't stand Pitino but I always liked this rant. He couldn't be more right. The negativity in this town IS sickening. Drives me absolutely crazy.

One of the best things you can do as a new England sports fan is to totally ignore the local media. It's a lot easier to do after leaving town, but it sure does make things more fun.

There are only like 5 people who post in this thread, and the negativity about the defense is mostly just 2 or 3 people going back and forth (I've occasionally trashed the D myself, guilty as charged).

But do we really want to compare this thread to those team threads? In a quick season and a half, Packers fans have become the biggest d-bags on this forum (as evidenced by the first three posts you quoted from them), with several getting banned from game threads, and Steeler fans are too busy trolling the main forum threads to talk about their own team amongst themselves. You do realize they were voted the worst fanbase in SE? Cowboys fans are too busy trolling Giants and Eagles fans in the NFC East thread, and the Raiders and Niners fans are just happy to be here right now.

If questioning our SB chances because of the quality of the defense is our worst flaw as a fanbase here, it could be worse.

I did that joke last month, T.