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Old 02-10-2015, 10:25 AM   #101
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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Washington state bill pulled from hearing.

Also, class suit filed against DK in Florida: http://www.odfreport.com/wp-content/...orida-suit.pdf
What do you make of the bill being pulled from today's hearing? doesn't look like it's being shut down completely
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:22 PM   #102
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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wow talk about a few ruining for millions by filing lawsuits?... I have just skimmed through. Is this just a bunch of sore losers that are filing a lawsuit because they did not know it was gambling? also looks like they do not understand how bonuses work LOL
Not a legal expert here, but my impression was that the suit is about DK having deceptive marketing/advertising practices, using bonus release as an example.

FD has already faced litigation twice in Illinois due to some crazy state laws there.

These lawsuits are added expense to the contest sites, which IMO will keep rake going in the wrong direction.
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:24 PM   #103
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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What do you make of the bill being pulled from today's hearing? doesn't look like it's being shut down completely
I have no first hand info, but most of the industry people I follow say it's likely dead for 2015, will be revisited in the future.
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:33 PM   #104
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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I have no first hand info, but most of the industry people I follow say it's likely dead for 2015, will be revisited in the future.
well **** me
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:16 PM   #105
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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Not a legal expert here, but my impression was that the suit is about DK having deceptive marketing/advertising practices, using bonus release as an example.

FD has already faced litigation twice in Illinois due to some crazy state laws there.

These lawsuits are added expense to the contest sites, which IMO will keep rake going in the wrong direction.
I think its highly likely that DK received legal counsel when deciding what they could and could not say in their advertising. This kind of challenge is quite possibly something they would expect and would be prepared for.

Ever get one of those scratch off junk mails from a local car dealer? You always scratch off a winner...and its either 1) $10k 2) new TV 3) I phone 4) $1 scratch off lottery ticket. Then you read the fine print and you find overwhelming odds that you've won prize 4. Similar deal.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:57 PM   #106
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

On the DK Class Actio news: There is a Class Action wavier, in the DK TOS that submit to binding arbitration in Massachusetts (where they are headquartered): https://www.draftkings.com/help/terms, under: Arbitration, Consent to Jurisdiction in MA

I am told the case has zero chance.

It's just a lawyer money grab that has little traction and an (sadly) sign that the industry is maturing, expect more.
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:46 PM   #107
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

It has no chance because the Supreme Court ruled favorably for class action waivers a few years ago in a decision that probably set consumer interest back 30 years. The deceptive advertising claim does not seem that frivolous to me, as I suspect most people would indeed consider it a scam based on the way it is worded in the ads.
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:47 PM   #108
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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It has no chance because the Supreme Court ruled favorably for class action waivers a few years ago in a decision that probably set consumer interest back 30 years. The deceptive advertising claim does not seem that frivolous to me, as I suspect most people would indeed consider it a scam based on the way it is worded in the ads.
i guess but then again if they gave you bonus money right away everyone with just withdraw without ever playing
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:20 PM   #109
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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i guess but then again if they gave you bonus money right away everyone with just withdraw without ever playing
Typically sports betting sites that give you the money "right away" require you to roll it over a certain amount of times before you can withdraw it.

The issue with that for DFS is that you could go play H2Hs against your buddy and lose it all on purpose, and then your buddy would be able to withdraw.


I will say that DK's bonus having an expiration date is quite frustrating. I deposited the $600 thinking I would just clear the bonus over time, not realizing I only had 4 months to do so. 4 months to do $15000 in action on a $600 deposit is going to be really tough to do IMO.
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Old 02-10-2015, 10:38 PM   #110
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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i guess but then again if they gave you bonus money right away everyone with just withdraw without ever playing
You are right, but it's easy for us to see because we have been playing online poker for many years. For the average person, surely you might understand how they could feel misled when they find out they need to spend $1,250 in entry fees to unlock their $50 100% "match." I've introduced a few noobs who totally did not understand how bonus unlocks work fwiw. It's the specific language regarding that marketing tactic they are claiming is deceptive, and I'm not sure I don't agree with them. Whether the law does or not, I have no idea.

As far as the rest of the complaint goes, there is a lot o try-hard lawyering in it as they try to paint dfs sites as online casinos luring in unsuspecting victims or some bs. The ony thing they make a point about that I do think is a strike against dfs is how the ads seem so similar to ****ty lottery commercials, focusing on regular Joe idiots that "won big" or played for "huge cash prizes." I cringe everytime I see those ads and it's not doing dfs any image favors imo.
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Old 02-11-2015, 02:42 PM   #111
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

but if regular joes play it helps us out
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Old 02-18-2015, 01:30 PM   #112
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

Yo guys, I've been following DFS pretty closely over the past year or so (without ever playing much) because of the parallels with poker. It's really remarkable. You guys are more knowledgeable than me, not least because you actually play, so I have a couple of questions about the DFS future:

Some sports betting industry pros with whom I've done research work in the past have created Daily Fantasy Lobby, which is being pitched as a cross between Sharkscope, PokerScout, and Oddschecker. It's in a public beta phase right now.

Do you think that the DFS market has room for this sort of diversity, in a similar manner to poker? I'm thinking of the big poker-offshoot markets, like the abovementioned, and Pokertracker/HEM etc. Or do you guys see DFS as a less-nuanced player pool, without the same level of potential in offshoots?

FWIW I don't have a horse in this race - but I am fascinated to learn more.
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Old 02-18-2015, 01:56 PM   #113
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

Oh yeah, and my second question:

How concerned are you about legal issues?

In the industry articles and interviews that I've read, I am surprised by how little the industry in general seem to be concerned about the legal questions that at some point will surely be raised.

I'm thinking of the Black Swan events like UIGEA and Black Friday, which seemed inevitable in hindsight but were unforeseen at the time.

Has the DFS world prepared itself for when the inevitable heavy-handed legal wrangling starts? We don't know what form it will take, but it surely is inevitable that before long there WILL be a massive legal Black Swan...?

Or am I just paranoid (once bitten, twice shy etc)?
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Old 02-18-2015, 02:22 PM   #114
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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Oh yeah, and my second question:

How concerned are you about legal issues?
What legal issues? DFS is legal on the Federal level.

Quote:

In the industry articles and interviews that I've read, I am surprised by how little the industry in general seem to be concerned about the legal questions that at some point will surely be raised.

I'm thinking of the Black Swan events like UIGEA and Black Friday, which seemed inevitable in hindsight but were unforeseen at the time.

Has the DFS world prepared itself for when the inevitable heavy-handed legal wrangling starts? We don't know what form it will take, but it surely is inevitable that before long there WILL be a massive legal Black Swan...?

Or am I just paranoid (once bitten, twice shy etc)?
I wouldn't say paranoid so much as unaware of the law.

The Federal law that led to Black Friday, UIGEA, gave birth to Daily Fantasy. i.e. in the law that led to the downfall of US online poker, there was a definition that allows real money fantasy contests. Look in the beginning of this thread to see the details of UIGEA as it regards to DFS.
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Old 02-18-2015, 03:42 PM   #115
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DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

Just because it's legal now doesn't mean it will be later. I'm not predicting that it will be outlawed anytime soon or even at all but you'd be naive to not at least consider that it could be banned federally some day in the future.
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Old 02-18-2015, 04:02 PM   #116
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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Just because it's legal now doesn't mean it will be later. I'm not predicting that it will be outlawed anytime soon or even at all but you'd be naive to not at least consider that it could be banned federally some day in the future.
I work in the DFS industry. I worked in the Poker industry when UIGEA was passed. I know UIGEA well. I killed my last life and birthed my current one.

The first version of UIGEA was introduced in 1998. It kicked around congress for seven years, constantly changing until it was passed in 2006. Even then it was shoe-stringed to a must-happen anti-terrorist bill at the last minute of a closing session of Congress at 1AM of Saturday morning, September 30th, 2006. Oddly if 9/11 tragedy never happened, we'd probably still don't have UIGEA, and certainly not FanDuel.

Our Congress pretty much doesnt work at all, and getting something passed takes an act of God and then an act of Congress.

And I don't believe in God.

(That being said, you can never be too prepared and I hear your point.)

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Old 02-18-2015, 04:44 PM   #117
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

Surely you can see that the govt is being inconsistent with poker and sports betting being illegal and DFS legal. DFS exists basically because of a loophole so it is not unreasonable imo to think that at some point the loophole will close.

That being said, I think the general trend is toward legalizing things and not making things illegal.
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Old 02-18-2015, 05:13 PM   #118
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

Yes, my post was more along the lines of 'is the industry equipped to handle a Black Friday', rather than 'is DFS a legal grey area'.

I think that it's likely - inevitable? - that at some stage in the next few years there will be a big legal issue that threatens DFS. FWIW I'm not speculating as to what it will be, or as to its justification, I'm merely wondering if the industry shares my cynicism towards the political point scoring that inevitably surrounds anything that remotely resembles gambling, and whether it is prepared for it.

Great input though, Joe! And I share your certainty that it is absolutely legit AORN
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Old 02-18-2015, 05:44 PM   #119
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

Personally think a lot of it has to do with the money.

Pokers biggest problem was that the sites were all off shore and the government could not really figure out how to get their share. Basically a ton of US residents were shipping lots of money over seas.

At least with DFS there are local companies. Optics of shutting down local tax paying companies much worse.
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Old 02-18-2015, 05:59 PM   #120
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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DFS exists basically because of a loophole so it is not unreasonable imo to think that at some point the loophole will close.
It's not a loophole: the authorization of fantasy sports was explicit in the UIGEA.

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Personally think a lot of it has to do with the money.

Pokers biggest problem was that the sites were all off shore and the government could not really figure out how to get their share. Basically a ton of US residents were shipping lots of money over seas.

At least with DFS there are local companies. Optics of shutting down local tax paying companies much worse.
Bingo. DFS has vested (special) interests protecting it, so it's not going anywhere. It's the nature of governance that concentrated benefits win out over diffuse interests.
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:33 PM   #121
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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Surely you can see that the govt is being inconsistent with poker and sports betting being illegal and DFS legal.
Its pretty clear. Taking US citizens money and offering Sports Bets or Poker is illegal. DFS is not.

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DFS exists basically because of a loophole so it is not unreasonable imo to think that at some point the loophole will close.
Its not a loophole, it's crystal clear in the law.
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:35 PM   #122
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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Yes, my post was more along the lines of 'is the industry equipped to handle a Black Friday', rather than 'is DFS a legal grey area'.

I think that it's likely - inevitable? - that at some stage in the next few years there will be a big legal issue that threatens DFS. FWIW I'm not speculating as to what it will be, or as to its justification, I'm merely wondering if the industry shares my cynicism towards the political point scoring that inevitably surrounds anything that remotely resembles gambling, and whether it is prepared for it.

Great input though, Joe! And I share your certainty that it is absolutely legit AORN
DFS will see challenges on a State by State level and already has. However, so far, everything on a State by State level has been in the favor of DFS.
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:52 PM   #123
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

So Joe do you genuinely think DFS should be treated differently legally speaking from sports betting and poker? That is what I mean by "inconsistent."
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:56 PM   #124
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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Bingo. DFS has vested (special) interests protecting it, so it's not going anywhere. It's the nature of governance that concentrated benefits win out over diffuse interests.

I'm paranoid and still shell shocked from black friday, but having so much money on our team helps me sleep at night.
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:27 PM   #125
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread (1st State law introduced today)

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So Joe do you genuinely think DFS should be treated differently legally speaking from sports betting and poker? That is what I mean by "inconsistent."
I don't. But I am not running for Congress.

But the laws, do treat them differently. Entering Fantasy Sports contests for money is clearly defined in UIGEA as a skill game (look above in this thread for the exact wording.) Poker is in between somewhere (but mostly gambling to politicians) and Sports betting is clearly seen as gambling (to politicians).
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