Strong green line guys do what it takes to win.

I know that everyone might not agree with everything in your post, but it was a good read. Keep posting, don't let them discourage you.

QUOTING Lazyace
"3) Again, making more correct river calls has zero effect on your red line. One of the reasons I originally asked if this was a level. I suspect it still is"

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It makes sense to me that "better river calls" would improve the redline because losing money by incorrectly folding before showdown contributes to the downslope of the redline (Just like losses in blinds do).

this poast is so 2007

Well at the same time, if you value bet wider then you should be getting bluffed at wider as well which will have a negative effect on your redline. Regardless, when you value bet the river, and villain folds sure your redline goes up, but you were going to win the hand at showdown anyway so you just increased your redline at the expense of your blue line.

Usually, if somebody is looking to improve their red line, they don't want to do it at the cost of their blue line going down as much as the red line went up. That is pointless.

If somebody wants to suggest that there are 3 ways to improve your red line, I would expect them to mention 3 ways that are actually geared directly towards the redline.

Like how about 3betting/4betting more often in late position, stealing blinds more, or sometimes just not putting money in a pot that you're likely going to end up folding at some point in the hand anyway?

I stand corrected here. But its not incredibly obvious. For a lot of people, 'making more correct river calls' simply means fold a lot more often to river bets in the case that they already call too much, and that would have a negative effect on the red line.

So for some, it will improve the red line for those who play to nitty facing a river bet and for others it would hinder the red line while boosting the blue line for those who call too much.

I think that given this trade off, this tidbit of advice shouldn't qualify as 1 of the only 3 ways to improve your red line. There are many other ways to go about improving your red line that would have a clear and direct impact on it for the vast majority of players instead of just a few.

I was tempted to simply answer "Yes it's a level and you got trolled!" because after reading your reply, I thought there was no way you were ever going to agree with me or even meet half way. But since you took the time to write a reply, I thought I was owing you at least to answer some of your post out of politeness.

You have winning players on both sides. What I am saying is that if your winnings are driven by your blue line, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have a positive redline over a large sample.

FYI, these three ways have not been invented by me but originate from one of Grindcore's videos on DC and I have seen this advice repeated on 2+2 a few times. I didn't develop my arguments about them because I mistakenly thought they had become common knowledge. 1) and 3) do affect both your blue line and red line as other posters explained above. Which is why whoever attempts to 'fix' their red line risks to damage their blue line in the process and many red line players have mediocre blue line like this http://i47.tinypic.com/6okk6c.jpg


I actually agree with you. As I said this is an extreme example to make my arguments clearer.

One doesn't prevent the other. The crux of my argument is what matters the most in your approach: your cards or your reads. As a blue line guy, it is your cards, but your reads have an influence on your lines; you just don't give them as much importance as your cards.

HUD don't give you much info in regards of villain's lines and bet sizings, you need to take notes for this.

Yes, of course, red line guys will play a standard game but will make reads very quickly. You don't appear to know with which extent the red line guys out there rely on reads and I encourage you to make some research as I did before I wrote my OP. Grindcore is a well known coach on DC with a massively positive red line (and green line to go with it) and is a good start.

"Yes it's a level and you got trolled!"

Thanks, I will. I knew my OP would be somewhat controversial anyway.

I would have thought 2008/2009 but you have been on the forum longer than me and surely know better.

This is probably true, but it goes both ways because of how the lines converge. Ive yet to see a redline driven player with massively positive blue line, just as I havent seen a blueline driven winner with a massively positive redline to go with it. It might be possible for heads up players though.

Yeah, usually they don't have a very good blue line. Notice that it is easier for a red line player to have a positive blue line than it is for a blue line player to have a positive red line in 3+ handed poker. This is because in multi-way pots, the non showdown winnings have a negative sum while the showdown winnings have a positive one as I explain in post 11 (non showdown winnings turning into showdown winnings)

this guy is like, the opposite.

Is this a different style worth mentioning, or an example of an already red line player further increasing his red line at the expense of the blue? (Or just spew, as he puts it.)

I'll just throw this in here...

http://www.freewebs.com/al9/graph7.jpg


Stakes played are between 2nl - 100nl Full Ring approximately 3 years ago. I wish I had the rest of the my database because I had a lot more hands but my cpu died on me and I didn't have a backup.

Anyhow I know for certain you can have both a positive red and blue line you just need the right mix of opponents...super nits and fish. 6/4 nits are pretty common at FR low stakes holdem and you can steal their blinds orbit after orbit without retaliation providing a nice positive red line. Blue line comes from the fish dropping their stack in with the worst of it. By having these two different extreme types of players in the same pool and exploiting the heck out of them you can get a positive red/blue line.

Is it standard practice to filter for hands where I VPIP? In the above posted graphs, I'm curious if it's for hands where VPIP is flagged or not. Thanks.

The graph i posted has no filter. Straight 73k consecutive hands. In the top left corner for holdem manager graphs you can actually see whether filters have been applied.

You can of course filter for only hands you VPIP for analysis but when people say "I have a negative red line" they mean no filter over a decent sample.

^^Nice graph.