This is a situation every player ran into as being a "problem" at some point in their career. A lot of the decision are heavily influenced by the amount of blinds effectively in play. To not babble too much, BvB and deep stacks you should happily be calling from the BB with just about anything that resembles a hand. Any competent player is going to barrel a little more frequently in this situation. And if you are playing a passive player just attempting to steal your blind, well you will soon find out(if paying attention) that the player doesnt have anything and you can steal the pot at some point(turn for example). Position is your friend in determining if the sb is barreling light and/or has given up.

Vs a field raise, just use some logic. The deeper the stacks the more liberal you should be. If someone raises from a late position as a steal attempt but is too passive a player post-flop, getting post-flop is the goal.

I'm babbling but just reason what is going on. If someone is too aggressive for your skillset, remember you can always hit the fold button post flop even if it is a mistake. You dont have to continue with A10 just b/c you flopped an ace and have heavy action. Dont overthink it, try to see cheap flops, and figure out what is going on. It's not just a preflop game.

Almost every player will cbet when they have raised and are in position vs one opponent. You will be oop facing a cbet 2/3's of the time with air. How is that +EV? Surely it's better to just fold preflop.

That's the issue, if you are just calling and folding you are bleeding money. But obviously you will have to fold most of the time as you have nothing and are oop. So why bother calling with broadway cards/suited connectors and suited aces in the first place?

I realise its not just a preflop game and I want to improve my postflop skills. But you never answered my point about how the following can be made into a +EV situation -

You have suited connectors/broadway cards/suited aces and you call a raise from MP/CO/BTN in the SB or BB. You miss your hand 2/3's of the time and are facing a cbet oop. Then the 1/3 of the time you hit the flop you are still faced with the prospect of being oop for two more streets. Combined with the fact that when you hit it's often not even top pair, particularly with suited connectors. How can this be +EV?

Poker is not about hitting. It's not fit or fold. Yes that will be enough to get you through some game enviornments.

Yes you are going to face a cbet pretty much everytime. But guess what, you play poker and play back at someone. You create a profitable situation because the BTN raise you are facing doesnt figure to have a strong hand. I'm not advocating calling with A4s from the BB and check/folding a K87 flop. You have to rewire your thinking. Fit or fold merely lets you survive. Play back at someone. Call the flop lead the turn. check/raise the turn. I gave the example of A10 to point out that you dont have to continue if the action gets heavy. But once you have gathered information the opponent likes his hand. There is a turn card. Use it.

I can't answer in a sensible amount of words. But you sound like someone that just wants to wait for 99 or better. Play some poker, raise some cbets, lead out on some turn cards, check raise some bricks. All those hands we play are meant for purpose. To learn in what spots people cant handle heat, not just to see how many times we can cooler 1010 on a J102 board with JJ.

Fit or fold, throw it out the window. Play poker. 98s raising from the BTN doesnt really like a Q108 board. Just b/c you are beat and missed a flop doesnt mean you should fold.

Then if you play back at someone enough they might start to adjust and guess what, poker begins! Wouldnt it be great if some decent player just avoided playing you too hard? Wouldn't it be great if a 15bb investment failed and you started getting more action when you had KK in the BB?

Folding is fine, but you are playing to win money. The more situations you get in, the more likely you find someone making a mistake. B/c just like you, too many people play fit or fold. Most players cant fire a 2nd barrel. The ones that can, you quickly discover who they are.

2/3's of the time I am holding nothing oop. The BTN misses 2/3s of the time as well but at least he has position and the initative.

Yes that is sort of the problem. I want to start playing more hands from the sb/bb as I feel I might have a leak there as it seems to be generally accepted you should be calling there with suited conns, suited aces and broadway cards. However I can't logically see how these hands make money there.

I know we can make a few plays on the villain and we can take some pots like this but can we take down enough to outweigh the fact that we are weak and oop most of the time? What you are suggesting is in effect building pots holding little or nothing out of position. I think this will cost more money than it makes in the long run. Isn't the whole point of being in position, which the villain has, is that he's the one that gets to take down most of the pots with air.

I am trying to get out of the fit or fold mindset.

It seems to me the more situations you get in oop holding air the more likely you are the one who will be making the mistakes.

Like someone said, play more broadways from the blinds and skip the small pocket pairs when it gets HU. It's obv OK to include a couple of sc's from time to time.

It not only depends on the position of the opponent but on their tendencies. Vs a villain stealing more that 35% from the CO/Button I'm 3betting w broadways and PP most of the time and suited connectors some of the time, monsters always, and throwing away everything else. These guys will cbet a lot and double barrel sometimes too, so you don't want to play fit or fold. The less they steal the more I'm giving up with suited connectors and dominated broadways and the lower pp. The same goes for raises from MP.

I guess now that I think about I rarely flat call from the blinds if it's likely it will be a heads up pot. If I am in the small blind and I have a fish in my bb (which is a bad position btw) I may flat more often with pp and suited connectors to see a multiway pot.

Certain hands go up in value when you are heads up, and certain hands go down in value when you're heads up.

Typically, you want to be playing pairs, high cards, Ax cards heads up, because of their showdown value.

Suited connectors go down in value heads up, as do other certain hands. Pocket pairs below 66 go down in value heads up post flop, and you can also play hands like 10-9.

Can someone clarify whether calling from the blinds with broadway cards, suited connectors and suited aces is +EV or not against a decent tag/lag who opens from CO or button. Seriously Ive seen some posts where people say its dumb to call with suited conns/low suited aces in the blinds, and then again Ive seen plenty of posts and videos where people do it. The op makes a good case for why it seems like a bad idea. Here's his quote

Is he right or wrong?

As previous posters have said, this is dependent on numerous factors:

- your hand (obviously)
- the position of the PFR
- the % of hands that the PFR is opening from his current position
- the PFR's fold to 3b %
- the PFR's c-bet %
- stack sizes

I would add the following, which might be overlooked by some:

- the PFR's double-barreling frequency (if you have enough hands on him for this stat to be significant)
- the BB's squeeze % and call raise from BB % if you are in the SB
- recent history with the PFR
- your defend %, if you think the PFR is paying attention to your stats

Obviously, even a simple decision such as fold/call/raise a raise from the blinds is quite complex. You can never make a perfect decision, but you can think about which of the above factors suggest calling/folding/raising with certain types of starting hands.

For instance, clearly deeper stacks favor small PPs and SCs, to the point that even OOP to a raise you almost have to call with any PP or SC if the stacks are > 200 BB, and at > 250 BB there should be no argument. Your implied odds are just too great, and you have a reasonable, if speculative, hand.

What other factors favor speculative hands? Clearly, if you're in the SB and the BB has a high call raise % and/or a low squeeze %, that favors the speculative holdings. If you can expect a flat-call from the BB a high % of the time, you don't even need stacks that are very deep to see a flop with your small PP or SC because you will have two potential victims for when you hit. And if the BB doesn't squeeze much then you are more likely to see a flop for the price being offered to you presently. Being in the SB 3-way can actually better than being on the button 3-way if you're just set-mining or trying to flop a monster draw. Your ideal scenario would be to flop a set on a flop with a couple of face cards, check, see the BB lead and the button call, and then come over the top. This is even more helpful with a huge draw because you don't really want to see the turn; you'd rather just get all-in on the flop, while you're almost certainly a favorite.

Another pair of factors that favor speculative holdings is the position of the PFR and his raise % from that position. Somewhat counter-intuitively (but obvious to anyone who's read Harrington), it's better to flat with a speculative holding against a tighter, earlier raiser than a looser, later raiser. You're playing mostly fit-or-fold anyway, so you'd prefer the PFR to have a good hand rather than random junk.

Finally, you want to take into consideration the PFR's post-flop tendencies when deciding whether or not to speculate. Sometimes you can speculate against a wide opener, not because they will tend to have a hand for when you hit, but because they tend to overplay their hands and/or go too far with their bluffs. Here your ideal situation is to see a flop of K27 holding 77, c/c, and turn a face-card that will inspire your overly aggressive opponent to barrel again, at which point you can c/r or c/c planning either to crai or donk on the river, depending on whether or not you think he might have something to call with or might be willing to go all the way with a bluff.

Conversely, you should be dumping all of the "trouble" hands (JTo, QTo, QJo, KJ, AT, AJo, even QK against a particularly tight PFR) if the raise comes from early position and/or the PFR is tight. You're OOP and need to hit to continue, but when you hit you're going to want to fold anyway, so just fold now. Against a loose PFR or a button-steal from an average opponent, these hands are much trickier. Depending on the PFR's post-flop tendencies, you can either dump these hands anyway, call with some or most of them, or 3-bet. I personally believe that it's best to dump most of these hands, but 3-bet the best of them. The worst of the trouble hands are too weak to 3-bet and yet hard to fold, but the fact that you're OOP and will be facing a c-bet with no pair a large % of the time makes a fold your only real option. However, the strongest of the trouble hands may not be quite strong enough to 3-bet, but they're much too strong to fold, and yet if you call you have the same exact problem that you do with weaker holdings. So I'd 3-bet even though it's thin. Now I'm much more likely than my opponent to win the hand if we both miss.

An interesting class of hands is the PPs 77-TT, which you aren't purely set-mining with but which are going to face one or more overcards on the flop often. My preference here would actually be to 3b 77 and 88 and flat with 99 and TT, but that's of course unbalanced, so you should be careful doing that against observant opponents. I don't think you can make a huge mistake no matter what you do with these holdings, except possibly folding TT. These hands depend much more on your opponent's post-flop tendencies than they do on his preflop range. Can you get two streets of value with 99 on 22Q6? Will your opponent bluff into you twice and then give you a free showdown? The answers to these questions determine what you're doing with these hands: set-mining, trying to make it to showdown, or playing a bit more aggressively than optimal in order to help balance your ranges.

Clearly I got a bit lazy with the medium pocket pairs, but the above should serve as a starting point for your own analysis. What's important is to think about your opponent's range(s) and tendencies, and how you want the hand to play out on certain types of flops. How scared will you be of one or two overcards in five board cards with your 88? How much can you make with 33 if you 3b and the flop comes 37A? Are the stacks right for two streets with a raise, or three streets of c/c? Has the recent history with your opponent caused him to perceive you as overly passive or overly aggressive? Do you have any reads on your opponent? Maybe he double-barrels any A/K turn with 100% of his range on dry flops when he should only be doing it some small % of the time. Maybe he goes for three streets of value with TPGK rather than taking a b/c/b or b/b/c line.

I didn't get into 3-betting much, but you can use the same type of reasoning as the above to determine whether or not 3-betting with certain types of hands will be profitable. I'll only say that if you have a hand that you really don't want to fold, but you feel that your opponent is a better player than you, I'd prefer a 3-bet so that you have a chance of ending the hand immediately.

The three key words to keep in mind are: ranges, tendencies, and goals. What are you and your opponent's ranges both before the flop and in certain post-flop spots? What are your opponent's tendencies, and do you think he has a read (or mis-read) on any of your tendencies? What are your goals for the hand given various types of flops that could come?

Good luck in your analysis.

Seriously, Small Blind or Big Blind, call vs a EP raise, CO raise or BTN raise? If you're not closing the action or you're not in position, calling is a leak. If you're in the SB, just 3bet your entire range vs the CO and BTN and if you're in the BB 3bet your entire range vs the BTN and call the CO with implied odds hands.

Don't set mine in the SB, it's a license for the BB to either over call for relative position or Squeeze all fing day.

Great post discipline. Can I ask what you generally do with suited connectors and suited aces when stacks are 100BB and you are faced with a raise from decent player opening from CO or BTN? I have generally been calling with these hands but op's post made me ponder whether this has been +ev for me.

Should suited connectors/aces just be just dumped preflop because as the op says most of the time you will miss the flop and be oop facing a cbet, and even when you hit you will be holding a weak made hand oop (apart from the odd time you flop a big draw of course).

What do you mean by 'entire range'? Do you mean our entire range of decent hands such as pocket pairs, broadway cards, suited conns and suited aces?

And why do you differentiate between the SB and BB in that the SB should 3bet all his range vs the CO and BTN, yet the BB should only 3bet the BTN and should call CO with implied odds hands?

Whats wrong with set mining from the SB and having BB over calling? Surely it's a plus that you are now in a multiway pot with your speculative pocket pair?

I would strongly prefer a mixed strategy of some 3-bets and some folds, weighted towards folds, with suited aces and suited connectors from the blinds when facing a LP raise, assuming 100 BB effective stacks. The stacks aren't deep enough to flat OOP with these speculative hands, but then again you can't just fold them 100% of the time because they have some value, and they're good for balancing as long as you don't overdo it.

As for breathweapon's post, he has a legitimate point about relative position and the difference between being in the SB and being in the BB when facing a raise, but I did mention that the BB's tendencies are important when deciding what to do from the SB. I think he's being a bit dramatic about the BB squeezing you all the time, but it's something to be wary of, especially if the BB is alert and aggressive.

Small suited connectors have no real value heads up. Ax(s) retains value mostly for the Ace in of itself.

Small suited connectors, small pocket pairs, Ax(s) have the most value in multiway pots, but their value fluctuates depending on the circumstances.

this is assuming you are playing the blinds the same as you would play 2-max heads up.

Broadway cards frequently have their greatest value heads up.

I know that they discuss all of this on pokervt.com. In fact I have charts that specify the value of hands depending on the number of opponent's you're facing, but unfortunately I can't post it due to copyright issues.

Because in 50NL 6max + the BB is going to squeeze your SB calls, and if he over calls, you can't check/raise, lead or float effectively to re-steal the pot. Even when you do hit your set, you're out of position, and thus you're not going to extract the amount of money you need to break even let alone profit from calling vs a 33% steal range.

I'll flat vs the CO in the BB because his range is strong enough to pay off 2 streets but weak enough to play back at - and it's a 1bb discount.

Fit or fold poker really, really sucks at 6max and implied odds are terribly overrated. If you don't have the button, if you're not closing the action or you don't have positional protection (i.e the raiser's range is tight, therefore you're not going to get squeezed from behind and you're going to get implied odds). Don't play a hand with out leverage, I guarantee you're calling way, way too much when you should be folding or re-raising.

@Discipline

I'm not exaggerating, I'll squeeze any two any time I see the BTN raise and the SB flat, the BTN is less likely to 4bet bluff and the SB's range is face up unless he's flatting QQ/AQ+ and back raising me. A lot of regs do the same at middle stakes IMO, they'll exploit you until you fight back - it's the cowardly bully complex.

Edit: And BLEH at SCs being worthless heads up or playing them to hit the nuts, you're doing it wrong, SCs are worth the most when their range is at its widest ... WTF are you floating, check-raising and leading with? Flop equity and semi-bluff for christ's sake, they'll fold their crap all day.