Hello everyone!

Lately I've been trying to review a lot of things about my preflop game and I'm having some doubts about how the value 3betting range from the blinds. Here are a few of the concepts I've understood.

- we 3bet for value hands we intend to broke preflop with when facing a 4bet
- our 5bet bluff combos will count in our 3betting "for value" range
- 5bets for pure value should be hands that have >50% equity against our opponent calling range
- While IP 3bet/broking as a 5bet bluff combos like A5s is ok, this doesn't work OOP as we don't like to play big pots OOP with that kind of hands and, for instance, they play better in our flatting range from the BB
- So instead of using "pure" 5bet bluffs, we use hands like AQ and JJ (and lighter) as semibluffs, the reason for this is that we expect the OR to be defending often so such hands have a great strength against his calling range (then ofcourse we're going to have other bluffing hands but that's another story)

So, given all of this I'm not getting why in a lot of GTO and pseudo-GTO ranges I keep seeing stuff like KQs. Are such combos added just to play with a stronger range when our 3bet gets called? What are we supposed to do when facing a 4bet? How often can we call a 4bet with such hands OOP? I don't think we're ever going to 5bet them :P

Also, please let me know if I got any of the above bulleted points wrong

I hope I've explained myself enough (I'm not native English speaker), and I really hope someone can help me figure out my doubts!

Thanks a lot guys

"- we 3bet for value hands we intend to broke preflop with when facing a 4bet"


not all of your 3bet value range should continue versus villains 4bet, which hands should continue depends on frequencies and stack sizes. Originally your 3bet was for value because your hand was ahead of their range, once you face a 4bet that range is much narrower so your hand might not be a value hand anymore. One way to build a pretty simple but still effective 5bet strategy would be to take your 3bet for value combos and continue with half of them. So your value range goes from 100% to 50% remaining combos with 33% of the hands being 5bet bluffs. The value range is easy to compose it will be the top third of your original 3bet for value combos. Bluff combos should be decided with more precision, in general 3bet value hands from the 34-50 percentile would make a good fit for this range. This 16.6% of hands could be your entire bluff range but you can fine tune hand combos for max EV. For example, QJs/JTs might be in the 55-50 percentile of your 3bet value hands but you might have other combos in your 3bet bluff range that would make better 5 bet bluffs(44/33/A2s) that would have more equity versus villains continuing range of AK/JJ+/AQs.


This is one playstyle you can choose, which would be good versus opponents with superior postflop play or versus an opponent that is making a lot of mistakes preflop. If you wanted to add a 4bet call range instead of a 5bet/fold method you would have to polarize your range more. Your 5bet range will become more narrow with fewer value and bluff combos; most of your thin to medium strength value 5bets and strongest bluffs will now be 4bet calls.
Imagine the 5bet range constructed earlier, whatever hand combos were in that range from the 37-70 percentiles will now consist the majority of our 4bet call range.
Now is when you want to polarize your ranges by switching some hand combos from your 4bet call and 5bet ranges. You could take 2 combos of AA & JJ, ~4-6 combos AKo, all AQs, all KQs etc. out of your 5bet range and into your 4bet call range. Take hands like 88/99, AJo, ATs out your 4bet call range and add them to your 5bet range.
This step is important so that you can maximize EV and be less exploitable along with balancing reasons. Try to put hands with high play ability into your 4bet call range like KQs or AJs that flop good top pairs and flush draws and strong hands that will usually be behind when all in eg. AQ. Taking hands like AQo, KQs from your 5bet bluff range makes it value heavy so you replenish it with high equity bluffs like 88, ATs that have low playbility and good removal.


There's a bunch of reasons its good to have a 4bet call range, it allows you to play more hands which is good versus a weak opponent. This is an example range and shouldn't be followed exactly, there are a lot of factors to consider positions, stack sizes, opponent.



- our 5bet bluff combos will count in our 3betting "for value" range
yes ofcourse, for a hand to be a 5bet bluff it has to be in your 3betting range, A5s which is a great 5bet bluff won't be in your 5bet bluff range if you are flatting A5s


- 5bets for pure value should be hands that have >50% equity against our opponent calling range

No you have to compare your 5bets value compared to the opponents 4bet range and also calling range(moreso his 4bet range), its somewhat counter intuitive to what you would expect. For example, villain 4bets you 5bet jam AKo, now villain calls JJ+ AK+ and you are under 50% equity vs that range but its still a value bet.


So, given all of this I'm not getting why in a lot of GTO and pseudo-GTO ranges I keep seeing stuff like KQs. Are such combos added just to play with a stronger range when our 3bet gets called? What are we supposed to do when facing a 4bet? How often can we call a 4bet with such hands OOP? I don't think we're ever going to 5bet them :P

KQs is strong enough to 3bet for value against late position opens. Yes its high play ability postflop lets us play more boards profitably. 3betting a hand like KQs will protect our range and give us more value combos therefore we can add more bluff combos like T8s.
Usually when facing a 4bet you should fold KQs, you will be dominated a lot. You can continue versus very aggressive opponents who have a high 4bet bluff frequency. OOP makes flat calling worse than IP obviously, so we cant call too often with this hand OOP. KQs could be a good 5bet bluff sometimes, usually its better to bluff with something like A5s.

Most hands can't be easily defined as "valuebets" and "bluffs" pre-flop, since there are so many things that can happen after you put the raise in.
To use KQs as an example, when you 3-bet it, you can get called by KTs (which would would mean you raised for value), you can fold out A6o (which would mean you bluffed), and you can fold out Q9o or 85s (so you protected your hand and prevented villain from realizing his equity). A hand isn't a pure "value raise" if it simultaneously gets called by worse and folds out better. If you then face a 4-bet, your hand is no longer doing so well, so you might fold it, as you have "better" hands to either call or 5-bet.

I think the KQs example is a good one to work with.

KQs is a hand that is about the limit case for a "decent" hand vs a two bet. As such it may provide you, OP, with a great way to improve your intuition about how to play certain "spots" (and I do think changing your mindset from how to play hands to how to play spots is a very good idea and should be done at as soon as you are able).

KQs can be a flat vs open in one case and I actually flat KQs vs a single open raise very often. If a player opens from middle position for something like 3xbb and you are in CO or on the button with KQs you may just want to call and take a flop in position with a hand that will play well against an open range but won't play well vs the range of hands that will flat call OOP vs a 3 bet and if you will have to fold vs a 4 bet. Flat calling even from Button vs CO with KQs can be fine if you think your KQs splits the gap between hands that will open and hands that will call vs 3 bet. You may well dominate a big chunk of villains open raising range but not do well vs his continue vs 3 bet range so why waste the hand? You want efficiency in your ranges, I think that's a massive concept, if often neglected.

In some spots, say deep stacked vs a loose aggressive player who open raises to 2xbb from the button and you are in the bb after the sb folds you can pretty easily toss KQs into a value 3 bet range and pop it up to 6x or so. So in a situation like that KQs can be 3 bet more or less for value. I would just never mind times you fold out A2o and such, the idea of value or bluff doesnt really mean much until one hand is a fairly big favorite over another. I would imagine you will fair just fine with KQs if A2o does call you pre-flop when you 3 bet KQs so it's still kinda w a value mindset you may decide to 3 bet the hand in a spot like this.

You may also want to use KQs as a 3 bet bluff facing an open from UTG when you are also in early position (in a spot you do want to have a 3 bet range) because maybe this is about the strongest hand you can have that cannot call profitably and because it has two very good blockers and because you will still have reasonable playability if called.

Understanding the way this exact same hand could fill 3 very different roles in 3 different spots can really help you to understand the dynamic factors you should be considering and ways in which you should be adjusting in NLH.

Good luck.

btw, aside from a bit of "second language confusion" it sounds to me like you are onto some good ideas and thinking pretty effectively about most of the things in the OP.

Exactly. You gotta consider how all of the potential non optimal counter strategies perform vs your preflop 3 betting range.

Thanks a lot everyone

So I think I've figured out a bit more about why and when I should increase my value-3betting range. I have to think in terms of equity realization of my hand. For instance, when I'm on the SB facing a CO/BTN steal I want to 3bet more often with my hands like KQ, AJ, ATs and so on as in most cases I won't be able to realize their postflop equity (either because playing OOP is bad, or because BB enters the action and stuff...). When I'm on the BB i just need to understand how much is my opponent defending vs 3bets and then deciding which range to use. If my opponent's folding way too much to 3bets than probably speculative hands like SCs and stuff will work better, while I can now profitably call KQ and similar since they will play against a broader range.

Ok so the point is:
- Take the top 50% of your 3betting range and shove-it vs 5bet
- 1/3 of this shoving range will work as a 5bet in bluff
- Fine tune by using small PPs and Ax-s depending on our opponent's 5bet calling range

Right?

no.

Let me save you some time and try not to simplify these things.

I spent literally two days trying to work out my reply to this thread. Im pretty busy, so was thinking that perhaps you guys would be able to help.

Here's my problem.

To define value perfectly we have to define a bluff.

Now, to an exploitative player deception is key to a bluff. Google also thinks that bluffs require deception. We make our opponent think that we are stronger than him, and we make him fold something stronger than us. Bluff. Makes sense. Easy.

But... If I am to play against another exploitative player, we would start off by deceiving one another loads, and then, as we both learnt about each other the opportunities to deceive one another would get less and less until eventually (usually hundreds of years later) there will be no opportunities left to deceive them. And at this stage we would both be playing GTO.

So, my question is this. What are those things GTO players call bluffs?

If there is no deception involved, it is not a bluff, right?

I think that splitting it up into two clean groups, value and bluffs, is not accurate. I think that we can also make a negative value plays which would not be bluffs. If we have KK and 5bet, we are not bluffing when he has the AA. The raise with KK is not a bluff ever. We are unable to see his cards so can't define the bet as a bluff at all. It is a pure value bet. Which loses us value.

Is that really beyond you guys... You GTO players think that when you have KK and open, you might be bluffing. And you don't see anything wrong with that logic lol??

Typically, the later your position, the more strong hands you have in your actual range, the more preflop semibluffs you can include but not limited to KTo A5s-A2s, 65s, 87s, 98s, etc.

Nope I see no problem here.

Regarding my perceived range:

Depending on my position and how bad my opponent thinks I suck at poker, the looser it is.

Regarding my preadjusted range:

This depends on live or online. Live, I expect to be called often and 3 bet rarely preflop, so my preadjusted range includes other good hands like T8s one spot from the button that I'd probably fold online. However online I'd make a different preadjustment of being tight preflop with my semibluffs and loose with my value bets.

Regarding my level infinity range:

Typically, the later your position, the more strong hands you have in your actual range, the more preflop semibluffs you can include but not limited to KTo A5s-A2s, 65s, 87s, 98s, etc.

Chen and Ankenman define a (pure) bluff as a "bet with a hand that has no chance of winning if called by the opponent's maximally exploitative strategy in The Mathematics of Poker.

Poker is a game of partial information. While two perfectly GTO players might know each others' ranges exactly, they don't know their opponent's specific hand on any given deal. Bluffs are basically the hands in their range that aren't value bets. (Let's just treat semibluffs as a sub-category of bluffs for this purpose.) They are part of a GTO range to hide information so that your opponent can't make the exploitative play of folding to a range consisting of all value bets.

Thanks mate, il come back to this thread when I have more time. I do get what you say but I am still well confused lol.

To me it is so simple. Value is the money we make/lose from the strength of our hand... The hands value... Easy.

A bluff is the money we make by make/lose by making the opponent think we are stronger (or perhaps weaker) than we truely are. Deception. Bluff. Easy.

GTO guys take the opponent out of the equation and then call a play a bluff, and that confuses the hell out of me! I personally don't think a GTO player bluffs at all. To me they only play for pure value. But I do see a flaw in that logic.

I don't pure bluff except on the river. Preflop, flop, and turn bets are semibluffs. Just the other day, I raised 22 in position and got called by a blind. Flop came 776, I checked back. Turn came 6, my opponent bet and I folded because I thought raising and calling were unprofitable. Had the turn checked through, I'd have bet the river with my nut low.