Sanity check here.

I took a look at the preflop opening ranges recommended by Upswing for curiosity sake, since they are free. Obviously, preflop opening charts are a crude tool and only a starting point, but they recommend a significantly wider RFI range from the SB (47.8%) than the BTN (40.6%), which makes me think I'm taking crazy pills.....

I get that BTN has to get through 2 players with steals and the recommended opening range seems in the realm of reason as a starting point, But if someone is opening half their hands from the SB vs my BB, I'm going to be punishing them for that. In fact, when a reg starts trying to open a wide range from the SB on my BB, that's a happy spot for me, since I can typically own a worse reg and usually profit vs even a better reg (until they learn to tighten up).

I'm no wizard, and maybe my opponents suck, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that opening wider from the SB than the BTN vs a competent (or semi-competent) BB is good in theory. My thought is that the disadvantage of being out of position on every street outweighs the disadvantage of having to get through 2 players, particular when neither player is playing perfectly (as mistakes on later streets are more costly than preflop mistakes).

Am I just completely off base here? Doug Polk and Ryan Fee obviously know a lot more about poker theory than some random (me), but who knows if they looked at these charts in the first place.

One "explanation" is that a button open has to get through two players, whereas a SB raise only needs to make one player fold, hence the idea that you need a narrower/stronger range on the button, since there are two people that might call or 3-bet you.

In the micros, you can probably get away with opening super-wide in the SB, as many players don't defend often enough. Against tougher players, it can be advisable to mix in some limps, as this will allow you to play an even wider range.

You call it crude and only a starting point, but i would say it's really important and it lays a very solid and important fondation for the rest of the streets. A small mistake pre will easily get blown out of porportion on later streets.

The charts in the Lab are much more comprehensive and quite different. Although they have issues too imo. There pretty clear they aren't the endgame for preflop, there just good starting platforms

Is it for cash game? Too tight defense on BBvsSB is a big general leak at least on micros. Actually you can open 100% against tight player and 60%+ against an unknown.

Opening ranges are obviously very important, but reducing them to a chart (ignoring stack size, opponent tendencies, etc.) oversimplifies - i.e., it is starting point.

Yes they are cash game charts, but not specifically geared to the micros. In any event, it wasn't so much that the wide range from the SB threw me (though 50% seems high), but that it was wider than the BTN. If you can profitably open 60% from the SB against a population that overfolds in the blinds, wouldn't it follow that you can profitably open even wider from the BTN when you have position for the 3 post-flop streets (as opposed to being oop on all 4 streets)?

Yeah, I mentioned that, but it seems counter-intuitive, except in short-stack situations where position is less important. The charts are for cash game, which is presumably 100bb or deeper.

If you're doing a rfi or fold strategy I think about 45% from both spots is solid and going wider in either spot based on people being bad is good.

If they're calling 3bets and 4betting pre correctly and are good postflop how are you going to punish them?
IIRC Doug opened a bunch of suited junk on the button even at 500NL.

You're also getting a better price on your steal. If you want to make it 3BB you only have to put 2.5 BB in.

A button raise has to get two players to fold. When opening from the small blind we are only facing one opponent therefor the opening range is wider.

notice that the BU has to profit from start of hand with every hand he plays, the SB just has to make >-0.5bb to make playing better than folding. In addition he only faces one player which makes it pretty obv that the SB can open more hands than the BU

I was sure this had to be an old thread, guess not.
Surprised to see this debate in 2017 :-)

If it's so surprising, maybe you can just definitively answer the question? Although it seems others already have; in the SB we already have in 0.5 BB, and there are 0.5 as many players left to act.

Anything else we need to know?

I am just confused - the charts are accompanied by tables with 9 seats....are these for full ring cash games? Tournaments? What?

Where the 6-max preflop charts at????

by the way, I mean the free charts!!

It doesn't matter. The same hands would be profitable to open from the same positions. Just pretend you're in 9 max and the first 3 folded.

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Am I a crazy fish or does that explanation not make sense because three less players' cards would be in play....meaning....things....?

There is a slight card bunching effect (i.e. when people fold it's not as likely they held an A for example so there are likely more Aces in other people's hands while something like a 2 would have the opposite effect) but the effect is mostly negligible. Someone did some excel work to try to account for it but that was awhile ago and I forget the technique. The basic conclusion was it was negligible but measurable I think.

The reason you see people playing fewer hands in larger tables is because the early raisers have more people to get through to steal the blinds and later raisers typically have more people already enter the pot before they can raise so they also have to get more people to fold.

Otherwise if you are in the same position at an unopened 9 handed table the same hand can be played for a raise as if you were playing at a 6 handed table in the same position.

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I see, thank you.

Ok so my final question about it - what is the "MP" considered in 6-max as it relates to these charts? UTG+1 or HiJack?

For SB, BB, UTG, CO, BTN, it is all easy to just follow what the charts say because the names stay the same. But which one do you insert between UTG and CO? Because the ranges are quite different for the UTG+1 and Hijack on those charts.

I know it's just a guideline, but just wondering if there's an answer, thanks.

^^ nvm, I figured it out I THINK!

The first 3 spots eliminated, but yet the names must be shifted over? That makes sense.