Serious question: the "never fold KK preflop" law
08-13-2009
, 04:18 AM
surprisingly, QQ for me are extremely profitable, more than KK, but I think thats coz i tend to get lucky with them
08-15-2009
, 01:28 AM
08-17-2009
, 06:48 PM
02-02-2012
, 10:52 PM
08-07-2014
, 02:38 PM
Played this hand recently.
Also did a little equity check. So I need about 28% to call. At first I checked my equity if I *know* a player has AA, it was about 15%, no surprise there. But not to be too results oriented, I wanted to see how bad my fold would be if I was wrong and they both were shoving a bit wider.
Weird! I honestly thought I miss-typed something at first. But when you think about it, it makes sense. The KK heavily blocks the K in AKs. Also if one of the players has QQ, it very heavily blocks the other from also having QQ. So that leaves AA.
Merge, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
CO: $349.71 (349.7 bb)
BTN: $97 (97 bb)
SB: $166.46 (166.5 bb)
BB: $137.45 (137.5 bb)
MP: $100 (100 bb)
Preflop:
MP folds, CO raises to $2.87, BTN calls $2.87, SB calls $2.37, BB raises to $14.35, CO raises to $32, BTN raises to $97 and is all-in, SB folds, BB raises to $137.45 and is all-in, CO folds
Flop: ($228.87) 5
7
4 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: ($228.87) 6 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($228.87) 3
(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
CO: $349.71 (349.7 bb)
BTN: $97 (97 bb)
SB: $166.46 (166.5 bb)
BB: $137.45 (137.5 bb)
MP: $100 (100 bb)
Preflop:
MP folds, CO raises to $2.87, BTN calls $2.87, SB calls $2.37, BB raises to $14.35, CO raises to $32, BTN raises to $97 and is all-in, SB folds, BB raises to $137.45 and is all-in, CO folds
Flop: ($228.87) 5
7 4 (2 players, 2 are all-in)Turn: ($228.87) 6
(2 players, 2 are all-in)River: ($228.87) 3
(2 players, 2 are all-in)Spoiler:
and won $112.43 ($15.43 net)Also did a little equity check. So I need about 28% to call. At first I checked my equity if I *know* a player has AA, it was about 15%, no surprise there. But not to be too results oriented, I wanted to see how bad my fold would be if I was wrong and they both were shoving a bit wider.
| ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation |
| 600,000 trials (Randomized) |
| Hand | Pot equity | Wins | Ties |
|---|---|---|---|
| QQ-AA, AKs | 36.21% | 196,416 | 42,570 |
| QQ-AA, AKs | 36.36% | 197,173 | 42,826 |
| KK | 27.43% | 144,683 | 40,727 |
Weird! I honestly thought I miss-typed something at first. But when you think about it, it makes sense. The KK heavily blocks the K in AKs. Also if one of the players has QQ, it very heavily blocks the other from also having QQ. So that leaves AA.
08-07-2014
, 06:07 PM
08-07-2014
, 06:18 PM
08-07-2014
, 11:00 PM
08-10-2014
, 07:25 AM
Quote:
I've been recently rebuilding a new bankroll, as my previous one (about 4k) was withdrawn and spent on a trip to Europe. While i played 200NL and other middle stakes, I adhered to the law of not folding KK preflop, as it's obviously a very exploitable leak.
However, at low/micro stakes, I'm beginning to think it wouldn't be much of a leak. Obviously, I still have a HUD from before, so I'm looking at players who have a 0% 4bet stat over 100+ hands, and even 3bet%.
Just over the 4,000 hands I've played today, I've read that I was getting coolered by AA twice while holding KK, and was correct both times (and flopped quads once, yay for variance!).
The question is,
Can villains be poor enough players to justify folding KK preflop?
Is it like original sin to actually consider?
I've done it before, though it's not something I usually tell other people (as Dan Harrington says in his first book, he just laughs at people who tell the stories of folding KK preflop). Just curious if this is a possibility others have considered much.
However, at low/micro stakes, I'm beginning to think it wouldn't be much of a leak. Obviously, I still have a HUD from before, so I'm looking at players who have a 0% 4bet stat over 100+ hands, and even 3bet%.
Just over the 4,000 hands I've played today, I've read that I was getting coolered by AA twice while holding KK, and was correct both times (and flopped quads once, yay for variance!).
The question is,
Can villains be poor enough players to justify folding KK preflop?
Is it like original sin to actually consider?
I've done it before, though it's not something I usually tell other people (as Dan Harrington says in his first book, he just laughs at people who tell the stories of folding KK preflop). Just curious if this is a possibility others have considered much.
Ive flatted UTG KK 4 times and lost the minimum other than folding to 4B.
Once, in a 10K WPT event the player was pretty bad and had been nervous until he 4B UTG+1. He way underbet flop, checked behind turn and I underbet/called minraise on J high river for 1/3 stack.
Once player was pretty good but still had a very tight 4 bet and I let it go on Q high turn after 2nd barrel.
Third time player was pretty good and still very tight. I chk/called on Q high flop, and chk folded to A on turn.
4th time we were deepish at maybe 150BB effective stack vs another tight player. I just chk/called 3 barrels and saved ~BBs.
Point is, you can play a super tight range pretty clearly when an A or Q hits and you don't necessarily have to get stacked even on low boards when under representing since the player is then trying to get the most out of a hand like JJ keeping them on the hook with bet sizing, but you can also get the most out of QQ
I did make what I thought was a big mistake on a tight table in an MTT when UTG limped, I raised, BB shoved, and UTG shoved. I tanked and finally called at the end of my clock.
I do recall a TV WSOP table when I thought KK was a terrible call. I can't recall precisely action but PH had AA and probably raised, player 4B, woman shoved and PH did one of his snap sloppy shoves with chips falling everywhere. KK tanked forever while the other two couldn't contain themselves with how pleased they were over the situation.
Also seen from a third person point of view a couple of spots where I think I could have laid down KK as played but have yet to make that fold myself.
08-12-2014
, 01:04 AM
08-12-2014
, 02:58 AM