Hello,
from what I understand river call efficiency in pt4 tells us how much $ we get back for every 1$ invested in river call, so having RCE of 1.8 is probably too nitty as we fold hands that are slightly plus EV.
At the same time over decent sample when I filtered : called river bet my winrate is negative 45BB /100
I thought this stat works in a way that PT4 counts how many BB we invested calling different sizings and having RCE 1.8 means your blue line when called river bet has to go up. Basically I was convinced that RCE above 1 means : your river call over given sample have made profit.
Does it mean im too nitty in small pots but spewing in big ones so my blue line gets crushed while RCE retains pretty high ?

This seems a bit peculiar. Can you double check you have the filters set up correctly? If your RCE is much higher than 1, then I think the filter "Called river" should give very positive results.
Have you played multiple different stakes? That would be my only explanation for you having a positive RCE but a negative winrate for the "called river" filter. (e.g. if you made a very profitable river call at 100NL for $100, that might make up for many losing calls of $10 at 10NL)
If you have indeed played multiple stakes, what does your blueline look like (positive or negative) on the overall graph, if you set the X-axis to measure big blinds instead of cash?

Have not figured it out either, but I think you get credit for the whole pot when the call wins, but only detract the amount of the call when you lose.

Meanwhile, the win loss graph includes all your participation in the hand, and when we are calling on river we are overall going to be losing hands of poker

If this is the case, my fixed limit number of 3 sux @$$...

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Yes I checked everything, I played multiple stakes but it doesnt matter because I use only BB graphs when I analyze my database.

thanks for your answer
Why do you think we shouldnt get credit for whole pot ? River decision is based on pot odds so imo river call eff stat by definition has to do with whole pot.

That is just how that stat is calculated in pt4, i think.

Money won by calling divided by money spent on calls


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I thought the same, but it apparently isnt true
lets say your opponent only bets pot, you call this bet perfectly so win 33% of the time, in this scenario RCE is 1.0 and your graph must be exactly break even. The situation I desribed - having RCE 1.7 and losing graph would be impossible if it worked like that. This is why Im confused.
imo it has to do with calling multiple sizings and sizes of whole pot .It probably makes sense because if it just counted $ invested and return from calls we wouldnt get any info about small pots. But I still have no idea how it works and how to interpret these results

No that is RCE 2.0

(100-33)/33=2

...i think....


And the graph is for the whole hand, some of your money went into the pot...


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I will get a screen shot of the tool, it has a definition in the client...


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Oops sounds like perfect efficiency would be 3.0 in the scenario described...

You could still have a negative blueline overall (no filters set) if your RCE is >1, because the blueline (showdown winnings) includes the results of hands where you bet the river and got called by better (e.g. a failed bluff) or the river goes check-check and you showed down the worst hand. i.e. The blueline isn't just for calls.

I'm mystified about why - with a high RCE - you'd have a lossrate or losing graph with the "river call = true" filter switched on though. I tried running that filter on a little HEM database earlier (one where I had a high RCE due to extreme nittiness vs river bets), and I had a winrate of over 1000bb/100. :/

Judging from the definition of the RCE stat in the PT4 client, RCE below 2 is likely to be unprofitable in NLHE. And most calls will be less than pot, but need to win less often, so maybe overall 2.0 should be a minimum.

A pot sized call on the river, will need to win a third of the time to break even, and that would be:

(Pot + Call) / Call

And a graph filtered for "any river call" will include the money invested in the hand prior to river, which is not part of the RCE stat.



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I think the size of the pot matters so huge pots will skew results.