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River GTO plays River GTO plays

06-15-2017 , 08:21 AM
Hi,

Let's imagine a spot. For example, let's say I 2barrelled and we are playing the River now.

If our river range is balanced (not too solid, not to missed draws heavy)
and if our river plays are balanced (let's say between betting and checking).

Does this mean that the EV of betting should be = the EV of Checking?

Does this mean that if I want to find spots were my ranges are not balanced, I could launch 2 queries in my DB. For example "spots where I 2barrelled and bet the River", and "spots where I 2barrelled and checked the River".

And if the EV winrate is the same for both betting and checking over a significant number of hands, does this mean that my ranges and plays are well balanced?

If EV winrate of betting >> EV winrate of checking, then my betting range is too Value heavy (not enough bluffs in betting range + not enough made hands in checking range) ?

If EV winrate of betting << EV winrate of checking, then my betting range is too Bluff heavy ?
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06-16-2017 , 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poker-hero
Does this mean that the EV of betting should be = the EV of Checking?
Depends on the hand you have. If you have the nutz, betting IP will obviously have higher EV than checking.

EV of betting = EV of checking only for some bluffs and super thin value bets.

If our range is 100% polarized on the river, betting range will have EV = 1 (pot), and checking range will have EV = 0.

So your way of looking for imbalances in your DB wouldn't work, since the EV of betting will always be higher than that of checking.
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06-16-2017 , 07:19 AM
First question = no

Second question = no
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06-16-2017 , 07:45 AM
Quote:
If EV winrate of betting >> EV winrate of checking, then my betting range is too Value heavy (not enough bluffs in betting range + not enough made hands in checking range) ?
No you're not trying to make ev bet = ev check. Ev bet should be > ev check. If ev bet is < ev check, then you should check.
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06-16-2017 , 02:04 PM
I think OP might be under the impression that "balance" means half his range should bet and half should check, or half the combos are value bets and half are bluffs. This isn't the case. It's more often the case that 60-80% of your betting range is for value, and it gets the majority of its EV from being called by worse, while 20-40% of your range is "air" and it gets the majority of its EV from betting and causing the opponent to fold.
Balance does not mean a 50:50 split. Your betting range should have a much higher EV than your checking range, since your betting range contains more value hands than bluffs.

Probably a better way to run filters in HEM to see how balanced/unbalanced your betting range is to set up the filter "bet river", choose a sizing, and see if your range has enough bluffs in it.
This image is from a meaningless sample size and I haven't selected a bet-size, but you can see that for the action "bet river", the player was bluffing (with air or a weak pair) about 30% of the time. He's reasonably well balanced, because he's betting for value about two thirds of the time. An ubernit would never show up with "nothing", whilst an aggrofish would often have air. Balance arises from having just the right amount of bluffs.

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06-18-2017 , 06:57 PM
EV of your weakest hand should be the same for betting and checking all other hands that you bet should have higher EV then checking.
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06-19-2017 , 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poker-hero
Hi,

Let's imagine a spot. For example, let's say I 2barrelled and we are playing the River now.

If our river range is balanced (not too solid, not to missed draws heavy)
and if our river plays are balanced (let's say between betting and checking).

Does this mean that the EV of betting should be = the EV of Checking?
No, it means that you have value bets and bluffs in your betting range in a ratio that is annoying to a player holding a hand with bluff-catching value. It can also mean including some strong hands in your checking range so that your opponent can't assume you are weak and bet with impunity.

You can be balanced without being GTO. It is probably hard to have both a perfectly balanced betting range and a perfectly balanced checking range. Against most opponents, you just need some semblance of balance so that you are not transparent, like a nit who never bluffs or a maniac who almost never has anything.

Your betting range should be stronger than your checking range and should be more likely to include river action, so your EV in hands that you bet on the river should be higher than your EV in hands that you check on the river.
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06-20-2017 , 12:23 PM
Thank you guys for your posts!

Regarding both questions, Piosolver staff confirmed that the answers are :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokenstars
First question = no

Second question = no
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