Let's say we open 25% from our CO and face a 3bet from a loose aggressive regular that 3bets 20% and has a 5bet range of 9% which is near half of his 3bets defended.

Let's also say we usually defend our pre-flop opens by 4b-calling QQ+, AK and by 4b-bluffing around 25 combos of suited Ax and Kx.

Now vs this guy who 5bets too much (let's assume 5bet jam), how do we adjust?

1) we add more value hands to our 4b-call range and 4b-fold the same number of combos.

2) we add more value hands to our 4b-call range and remove some combos from our 4b-fold range.

The first adjustment would increase our total 4b% whereas the 2nd one would keep our 4b% the same but just more value heavy to exploit our opponent. Which one would you chose? Ty.

What is the position of the 3-bettor? What are the stack and raise sizes? Why is 4betting our only option? How is villain constructing his 3bet/5bet ranges?

I forgot to say that BB is the 3bettor.

Stacks are 100bb effective. We open to 3bb and BB 3bets to 10bb. 4betting is not our only option but it would punish more the BB for 3 betting a lot than by flatting.

I don't know how villain is contructing his 3bet and 5bet ranges :S.

Adding on to just_grindin's questions: Does he ever flat 4-bets? Does he 5-bet the top 9% of all hands, or the top 7% with a few light 5-bets thrown in, or . . . ?

Wouldn't that depend on his post flop game?

He's capable of pulling off light 5bet jams and he only 5b jams or folds.

Yeah I guess. But his 3b and 5b ranges seems the most notable leaks in his game. I was just wondering how do we go from a GTO strategy back to an exploitable one as the latter seems more profitable until our opponent adjusts.

So you have position but you're never flatting his 3 bets? I'm just saying you could start flatting villain a lot and see how he adjusts. Playing oop in a pot with an SPR of 4.5 can't be all that fun. You could definitely make your open smaller, which should make his 3bet smaller making SPR slightly higher and even more difficult for villain to play.

We do protect our pre-flop open by flatting and 4-betting but I wanted to focus on how to adjust our value to bluff ratio in our 4-bet range while still flatting enough hands in order not to be exploitable .

I think the answer to my question depends a lot on how villain constructs his 5b jamming range as stated by Rei. If we 4bet a balanced range while flatting enough hands we may be able to pick up more reads on how he constructs his 3b and 5b ranges.

We could try to go with adjustment 1 as its unbalances our range less than adjustment 2 therefore its easier to go back to GTO when villain adjusts.

I don't know if what I'm saying is making sense but another similar example would be our BTN 3bet range vs CO. Let's say we usually 3bet a balanced range of 40% value hands and 60% bluffs to defend vs 4bets. Then we run into a guy in the CO who opens 20% and folds 99% to 3bets. Now increasing our bluffing ratio vs him should be very profitable but do we also remove some value hands from our range such as QQ and KK or we keep them in case he adjusts?

Downsize your 4-bets, value 4-bet wider, and 4-bet bluff more frequently.

What does downsize mean? Why 4bet bluff more frequently if he 5b jams a lot?

Raise smaller.

Because your 4-bet bluffs will be +EV against his strategy.

Villain is not defending his very wide 3bet range well enough by only 5betting.

If I 4bet to 23bb he need to defend at least 40% of his 3bets.

He 3bets 20% from the bb so he needs to defend 40% of this which is 8% and his 5b range, not % of 3bets that are 5betted, is 9, which is above the minimum required.

Barely, but you're also 4betting for value so his strategy on the whole isn't going to totally compensate for his lack of a 4bet flatting range.

Also re-read Rei's posts. Lot of additional suggestions to go along with 4bet bluffing more.

This is so confusing, why would we want to 4b bluff him if it doesnt generate any profits (almost none) as we have no FE at all. Our 4b bluffs need to work 55-60% of the time to profit immediately.

first of all, tighten your co rfi to a percentage you can confidently defend against 3bets. you'll get 3b at least 35% of the times from the 3 players combined behind. there's nothing bad against openfold some small pairs and Kxs from your pre defined range and open 15-20%ish on this table.

against 20% i dont think you should turn Axs into 4bet bluff (you can easily call with them), you should do it with your worst offsuited broadway combos like JTo QTo (but you can call with them as well, but just slightly +ev if any) you can defend K8s-K9s-ish hands as well by calling, 20% is very wide.

on a side note i dont think your example is realistic, i think a legit case for 3betting 20% and 5betting 9% is SB v D. in that scenario, your best 4bet/calling range is {88+,AQ+}

3betting 20% of BB-s versus Co opens is very-very rare and not a very good play, a depolarized 20% range would be around BE against a standard Co open range, and would be a very bad idea to 3bet the top20% of any position except SB. you cant develop a calling range with that play in your gameplan.

23 is way too big against him.

We don't. Honestly I think 4bet bluffing a player who "5 bets too much" is one of the worse plays in poker. You're just sticking a decent sized portion of your stack out there begging for it to be taken.

If you're in position, you want to use your positional advantage. So I would call pre with a wide variety of suited hands. If our opponent stacks off a lot then we wait for monster flops. If our opponent plays tight then we float and minraise flops a lot. If our opponent is a complete maniac pre we might even consider even just flatting with our aces. Why get it in against half the time pre when he he's getting it almost all the time on the flop anyway? Use bet-sizing and timing tells. In short, just play poker.

I'm not sure how this sentence can ever be part of a logical argument.

"Honestly I think bluff-raising a double-barrel is one of the worst plays in poker. You're just sticking a decent sized portion of your stack out there begging for it to be taken."

"Honestly I think running a three-barrel bluff is one of the worst plays in poker. You're just sticking a decent sized portion of your stack out there begging for it to be taken."

"Honestly I think every bluff for over 25 bb is the worst play in poker. You're just sticking a decent sized portion of your stack out there begging for it to be taken."

Where exactly is the argument?

1) As is, he folds to ~55% of 4-bets. 2) You shouldn't be 4-betting to a "decent-sized portion of your stack" -- start with ~18 bb. Your bluffs have equity, so it's not the end of the world if the BB deviates from push-or-fold mode.

This makes little sense. Who said that villain is "getting it almost all the time on the flop"?

wat

You missed that my statement was made in regard to a specific player type. Against a frequent 5-bettor, yes 4-bet bluffing is one the worst plays in poker. Likewise against a massive calling station running a 3barrel bluff might be one of the worst plays in poker. I thought OP made the player type he was up against clear, and IMO 4betting (as a bluff) against that type is awful.

23 bb is a standard 4bet size. Going lower doesn't solve your problem because villain could adjust his 5betting or calling range to compensate.

If our opponent is that type...

Eh, first off, I apologize for my rude/harsh tone. I should stop doing that.

There was no indication that you were referring to anything other than the villain we've been discussing throughout the thread. "[A] player who '5 bets too much'" certainly fits the description of this villain.

I'd say that a 45% 5-bettor is a "frequent 5-bettor", yet sufficiently small 4-bets are still at least 0 EV when such a player doesn't defend much outside of 5-betting.

"Likewise" isn't the word I'd use here; "frequent 5-bettor" and "massive calling station" aren't similar classes at all. A "massive calling station" is, by definition, someone who folds too infrequently for most big bluffs to be correct. A "frequent 5-bettor", otoh, can still fold enough that bluffing is a viable option.

You said "when he's getting it [in] almost all the time on the flop" . . . not "if".

You did say "If our opponent is a complete maniac pre", but not "post".

He could introduce a calling range. But as I already said, our bluffs will have equity when called. I'm not sure how he can adjust his 5-betting range to reduce the EV of our bluffs. 5-betting wider against smaller 4-bets would be lunacy.

Right so I'm not sure why you went off on some rant about generalizations for 3 barrelling boards and calling off 2 barrels, it doesn't at all apply to the situation.

I disagree, I feel there are enough players out there who are 5betting so often when they 3bet that describing a player as a "frequent 5 bettor" implies a 4bet is suicide. IMO its as if OP is asking "What should I be doing against a 3bettor whom I can't 4bet bluff profitably against?" Saying we should make weird min-4bets assumes his range won't be adjusted accordingly.

Oh I actually meant "post".

I was illustrating why I felt "You're just sticking a decent sized portion of your stack out there begging for it to be taken" couldn't be used as an argument.

I think the CO is a bad place to start this discussion. I personally don't find most BB 3betting too light vs CO.

Assuming 100bb stack. I would actually flat 3bet much more often with an adjusted opening range from the CO. But if we have to look at the 4/5bet range. I think it's better to have a much more polarising range vs a guy would like to 5bet/fold, or more merge range vs a guy who might flat our 4bet. However, with a 100bb stack size. It's hardly a profitable if we let our 4bet range dipping too low in value.

Hands like Axss and low pairs makes a great hand to 4bet bluff vs a light 3betting. As SPR gets low. We can't profitably set mine since we lose the pot too often post.
I also like to flat 3bet with suited AJ and AQo vs a light 3bettor to keep part of his range dominated and IP as well.

But in general. Vs a guy who 5bet 9%, you could call off as low a pair as JJ and the even TT and probably still break even vs his range.