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Old 10-28-2013, 08:35 AM   #1
AsUs91
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Pokersnowie question

http://www.pokersnowie.com/webapp.html?ref=sidebox

what is the raisesize for each position? snowie says best raise size = 0,5pot for ep or is this the cbetsize?
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:27 AM   #2
tultfill
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Snowie is a scam and you will lose money using that chart.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:52 AM   #3
AsUs91
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Re: Pokersnowie question

why?
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:09 AM   #4
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by AsUs91 View Post
why?
Because you won't be able to balance all the hands you're opening and fill out the ratios properly postflop.

And because:
1, it hasn't beaten any good player.
2, it is a very clumpsy approximation of GTO that will lose money vs smaller betsizes.
3, there is a thread around here on 2+2 where the best programmer at Alberta admits it's still a long way to go before HUNL is solved, which means we're still way off for a 6max solve. Which means Snowie is advertising itself as something that doesn't exist yet which means it's a scam.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:12 AM   #5
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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And because:
1, it hasn't beaten any good player.
Has it played any matches vs strong humans?
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:21 AM   #6
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Has it played any matches vs strong humans?
Nope, they just came out and said it was the best and we should take their word for it because of a few testimonials.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:11 AM   #7
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Re: Pokersnowie question

yes it did play against strong players
lost to jungleman hu

http://www.pokerlistings.com/videos/...ie-ai-c8846788



i don't think its GTO they just try to approximate GTO using neural net
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:19 AM   #8
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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i don't think its GTO they just try to approximate GTO using neural net
And have they provided any kind of proof regarding how good it is? Aside from wildly waving their hands?
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:12 PM   #9
AsUs91
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Re: Pokersnowie question

some1 know why snowie adivce openraise nl100 ep mp cu 2,25$ and btn 3,5$?
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:13 PM   #10
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by AsUs91 View Post
some1 know why snowie adivce openraise nl100 ep mp cu 2,25$ and btn 3,5$?
No - and let me make it very clear - these kinds of questions are 100% not welcome here.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:30 PM   #11
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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And have they provided any kind of proof regarding how good it is? Aside from wildly waving their hands?
Not that i've seen.
They only have some vague "testimonials" from players
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:03 AM   #12
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Re: Pokersnowie question

it uses bet sizes that are unnecessarily large especially in spots. Not sure if that's GTO or not but at least from an exploitive stand point it's really bad.

example: I 3bet from 10->30, villain 4bets to 105 with an air hand.
4betting to 80 probably puts me in a push or fold mode already so that's pretty unnecessary.
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:18 AM   #13
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Re: Pokersnowie question

I just can't imagine an actual GTO solution coming any time soon. I mean, say the cutoff raises with a wide range, and the button flats... In the simple case where the blinds don't come along, a GTO solution would include both players' ranges for every street. And they would have to take into consideration future streets at each decision point. It's insanely complex.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:19 PM   #14
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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No - and let me make it very clear - these kinds of questions are 100% not welcome here.
could u explain why?

seriously don't understand why u closed my thread? this is a theory discussion after all?
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:23 PM   #15
knircky
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by gbtl View Post
it uses bet sizes that are unnecessarily large especially in spots. Not sure if that's GTO or not but at least from an exploitive stand point it's really bad.

example: I 3bet from 10->30, villain 4bets to 105 with an air hand.
4betting to 80 probably puts me in a push or fold mode already so that's pretty unnecessary.
Except snowie would never 4bet with air.

Snowie does not say it prevents ur opponents to do stupid stuff.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:25 PM   #16
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by knircky View Post
Except snowie would never 4bet with air.

Snowie does not say it prevents ur opponents to do stupid stuff.


made my day!
more snowie threads pls!

Last edited by SchDonk; 10-29-2013 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:18 PM   #17
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by gbtl View Post
it uses bet sizes that are unnecessarily large especially in spots. Not sure if that's GTO or not but at least from an exploitive stand point it's really bad.

example: I 3bet from 10->30, villain 4bets to 105 with an air hand.
4betting to 80 probably puts me in a push or fold mode already so that's pretty unnecessary.
This doesn't really mean anything without knowing the blinds or stack sizes. Also did you 3bet to >30 or did you 3bet to 30?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coin View Post
yes it did play against strong players
lost to jungleman hu

http://www.pokerlistings.com/videos/...ie-ai-c8846788



i don't think its GTO they just try to approximate GTO using neural net
I just watched this video and throughout the video were clips of jungleman apparently losing, they didn't show hands or results so it is very unclear. Then towards the end of the video I think the man said jungleman was up 3 buy-ins or 300BB. It was very difficult to understand what was said though due to accents and fast mumbling, so I'm not sure at all what actually happened. Did jungleman win or lose?

Overall the video didn't seem to clarify and it would be interesting to see the actual hand history. Does anyone know if it is available somewhere?

Last edited by Limo Wreck; 11-03-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:11 PM   #18
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Jungle won, but he had good things to say about the bot, so I wouldn't be so quick to discount it like everyone else is.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:14 PM   #19
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by A_Schupick View Post
Jungle won, but he had good things to say about the bot, so I wouldn't be so quick to discount it like everyone else is.
I don't care if it beats every pro in existence - that does nothing in particular to verify it's claim that it's nearly GTO. The makers of this software make a claim that they won't even attempt to verify, which almost surely means they're full of ****.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:03 PM   #20
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Re: Pokersnowie question

With the experience and success of the Backgammon version of Snowie I'd not be too dismissive of their poker programme.

These guys are serious people and certainly don't merit being ignored so readily.

It may or may not be the perfect answer but it's certainly a step in that direction.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:06 PM   #21
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by Biffo View Post
With the experience and success of the Backgammon version of Snowie I'd not be too dismissive of their poker programme.
Backgammon isn't poker. I have made AI routines to solve or get close to solving a number of games. I'm nowhere near it on poker.

Quote:
These guys are serious people and certainly don't merit being ignored so readily.
Awesome. So they should have no problem justifying their declarations. Yet, they don't.

Quote:
It may or may not be the perfect answer but it's certainly a step in that direction.
This isn't something you get to say, without proof.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:46 PM   #22
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Re: Pokersnowie question

how close would be close enough to qualify?

i would guess that it is close enough to beat the **** out of me / i am likely already on the other side of the fence. so for practical purposes i would think it is best to assume it is close enough and work from there. what good may come out of snowie (except that it will make these guys some money)?
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:48 PM   #23
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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so for practical purposes i would think it is best to assume it is close enough and work from there
I really can't understand why people insist that the most likely explanation is that it's near-GTO. What is the reason for this belief?
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:27 PM   #24
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Re: Pokersnowie question

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Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
I really can't understand why people insist that the most likely explanation is that it's near-GTO. What is the reason for this belief?
reputation? Mr.Egger seems to be quite capable of following through on such a task. i may be wrong in any ways off cause.
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Old 11-08-2013, 05:44 PM   #25
sarganaga
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Re: Pokersnowie question

Come on guys. Remember the first rule of Snowie.
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