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Old 07-06-2012, 11:52 AM   #1
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Playing a exploitable game

Often we encounter players, that aren't thinking deeply about the game. Maybe a lack of experience or not that skilled.

Then wouldn't it be good, to play exploitable because we are never getting exploited.

What I mean is things,like small information raises or trying to control and obtain the lead by example of a turn minraise. Maybe with a hand with showdown vaule and we have a good chance of being ahead, but we save money on the last street by being checked to.

Yes I am well aware, that things like information raises are strongly frowned upon and I don't use them.. Rare case is vs a player that is not really thinking at all and just betting randomly.

This would typically be in a live game. Were we don't need to think about balance and so forth.

So what are peoples thoughts on deviating from conventional standard play and tailoring ones game according to specific oppenents?
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:04 PM   #2
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

Of course you should play exploitable against bad or mediocre players. Not sure why this is a question?
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:14 PM   #3
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

Lets pretend someone is truly playing random. They havent even looked at their cards, and they flip a coin to decide whether they bet or check. How does minraising the turn or leading out on the flop help you? Yeah he's probably going to come over the top with a real monster, but there are tons of hands in between which he will play all the same. He could be calling your minraise with a big draw taking the good odds you have offered him, be scared with top pair, or even 2 pair, and worse he could hit a suckout on the river. If you are having a tough time vs a very loose and even aggressive player, then try to play in position as often as possible (since this is where you get your most valuable information), and tighten up to a point where your decisions wont be so difficult. If you raise AK and flop TPTK then you arent really all that concerned with his hand as long as you hit yours.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:08 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikaze baby View Post
Of course you should play exploitable against bad or mediocre players. Not sure why this is a question?
idk if i misread the OP but i agree with baby. You should play that. Furthermore you should always be adapting and tailoring to opponents.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:18 AM   #5
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

Adjusting your play to your opponent's?! Now I've heard everything...
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:21 PM   #6
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Limit_Jesus View Post
Yes I am well aware, that things like information raises are strongly frowned upon and I don't use them.. Rare case is vs a player that is not really thinking at all and just betting randomly.
I think it depends on the information gained. How about a limit holdem example:

HJ limps, I raise 66, btn 3 bets, sb folds, all call. 4 ways to the flop.

239 rainbow flop. Btn seems pretty solid, so I don't expect a c bet from worse(maybe good Ace highs but he didn't seem that aggressive.) When the big blind and HJ check I like my chances, but the btn has a solid range that hasn't acted yet. I bet. If raised by the btn I believe I can safely fold. There are no good semibluffs on this board in his range. If he just calls, I'm pretty sure that I have the best hand. He just calls as does the HJ.

turn: 8r. I still like my hand so I bet when checked to. Btn folds, HJ calls. I still like my hand, but it's getting thinner because of the overcards.

river 5. The open ended straight draw paired up. A5 paired up. A4 made a straight. I bet. I get called. My hand is good.

The flop bet, although it may be -ev in a vaccum, gained me important information that allowed me to value bet 3 streets, while allowing me to get away for just a small bet if I was raised on the flop.

PG, Valente: I'm looking at you guys to tear this apart.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:22 PM   #7
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

Why is the flop bet -ev?
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:33 PM   #8
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

I think it's -ev because I expect btn's range to be really strong; I don't think he's fully adjusted to my co isolation range since we had only played together for a short while. I'd expect his range to be something tighter than 77+, AT+, A9s+, KQs. It's a trade off where he gets to bloat the pot with his overpairs and draw with his overcards, but I get to value bet the turn if he just calls.

If you think the bet is good in a vaccum, can you at least see how the information gained with flop bets that may be -ev could lead to good value betting opportunities?
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:06 PM   #9
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

I'd expect a BTN 3 bet after a CO iso to include quite a few bluffs. If you have a read he's a super nit then ok, give him only those hands.

I don't think a donk here is automatically -ev, but it will likely mean you're unbalanced. (Unless you decide to donk you're entire range, but you probably won't)

The concept of betting for information, rather than value, is where the problem is for me. If we bet and are called, so what. He could still have 99, any overpair, A9s, AK, two other over cards....If you think he won't c bet this board that much, won't you get more info by checking? Especially considering we can see how the other players react to a c bet.

If he's a good player, this is when we need to be balance and should have a c/c range. Vs this player, a donk may be -ev. And again, vs this player, what kind of info does a bet give us? If he knows we don't have anything stronger than a 9 he can screw with us with his entire range.

So, a lot of the time, our "info" bet is both -ev and does not give as much info as a check anyways. Plus it usually messes with our balance.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:59 AM   #10
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

Multiway, with a supposed horrible player(he limped) in the pot, I'm not worried about balance.

You're right about my range being capped when I donk because I didn't cap preflop. I probably have TT- here, but again, it's multiway so I expect straightforward play. I would donk my whole value range here.

A flop bet might not tell me that I definitely have the best hand, but it does tell me that I probably have the best hand when no one raises. Probably is good enough for me, especially considering the value gained on the turn and river.

It was live 10/20 second orbit with not much prior action that's why I expect such a tight 3 bet/c bet range.

The flop bet isn't just for information, but protection also. I don't want to give the blind or the limper a free card when they have T8.

If I only had one small bet left(lol fish), I'd probably check the flop because the benefit of going into the turn with the lead is gone.
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:37 PM   #11
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Re: Playing a exploitable game

I'd still be pretty concerned about balance if either of the 2 other players are good. The pot is getting big and btn, especially, should be looking for ways to exploit you. I have to remind myself it's live poker though....

I think the bet itself is fine. But I don't think that information has much, if anything, to do with it.
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