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06-26-2017 , 09:15 AM

Yadoula8

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Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,224

I am curious to know whether anybody understands all the fundamentals of exploitative theory. And so I have devised a question which will let me know... Can any of you answer this:

What type of move are you incapable of making if you are incapable of the FOURTH Level of thought?

(If you've read a pre-release version of my book please don't answer!)

06-26-2017 , 09:25 AM

robert_utk

Not From the UK

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

My levels are maybe different. Can you spot me a definition of 4th level, since mine is different?

EDIT: oh, Sklansky/Miller levels. Got it.

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Last edited by robert_utk; 06-26-2017 at 09:31 AM.

06-26-2017 , 09:34 AM

Bladesman87

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

You can't make a he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know what he has raise.

Last edited by Bladesman87; 06-26-2017 at 09:35 AM. Reason: underdetermined questions are of little interest

06-26-2017 , 09:38 AM

robert_utk

Not From the UK

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

Well, you can not break a level three tie. IE, all information you can process about the first three levels does not cross your decision threshold and you are unable to be more precise. You would have to flip a coin (or use flop hash) to make a decision.

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06-26-2017 , 09:43 AM

Yadoula8

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Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,224

Yeah this article gives you an almost perfect overview of the levels...

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/m...oker-19458.htm

In it there is a fundamentally misunderstanding which leads to a few mistakes. For example, it says that Level Five is for elite thinkers, it says that players who are capable of this Level live on a different plane of existence to everyone else. But this is completely wrong, it's easy to think at Level Five.

06-26-2017 , 09:44 AM

Bladesman87

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

Quote:

Fair point, semantically. To expand on why the question is underdetermined: it is unclear what a "move" even is. If it means legal plays then all options are open to a player regardless of what "level" (also undefined from the OP's perspective) they're thinking on. There is never a legal "move" I can't make. There are only different reasons as to why. And it's not even necessary that a player has a well formed "reason". Bots aren't consciously reasoning but they can play poker.

06-26-2017 , 09:47 AM

Yadoula8

banned

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,224

It is clearly a specific type of move. Its pretty simple and is something you will have all heard of, but I don't want to give it away! The person who understands all the fundamentals of exploitative theory will be able to answer it easily.

06-26-2017 , 09:47 AM

robert_utk

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Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

Is there such a thing as an exploit bot, from theory perspective?

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06-26-2017 , 09:48 AM

Bladesman87

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Yadoula8

It is clearly a specific type of move. Its pretty simple and is something you will have all heard of, but I don't want to give it away!

Triple range merge?

06-26-2017 , 09:50 AM

#10

Yadoula8

banned

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,224

I have never heard of a triple range merge lol

06-26-2017 , 09:50 AM

#11

robert_utk

Not From the UK

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

Value bluff. Play your bluff range, but sized as value bet.

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06-26-2017 , 10:07 AM

#12

Bladesman87

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yadoula8

I have never heard of a triple range merge lol

And this guy thinks he understands exploitation?

Tell me what you mean by "move", please.

06-26-2017 , 10:17 AM

#13

a dewd

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 4,594

If I think that you're thinking that I'm thinking of etc....is kind of assigning hand ranges to your opponent drawn out from a psychological battle that has been narrowed down.

You can value bluff because it would be part of a range that your opponent has narrowed down for you. You couldn't over bet a bluff because it would become obvious that it is not inside of the perceived hand ranges. You certainly would not get a call anyway.

06-26-2017 , 10:32 AM

#14

robert_utk

Not From the UK

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

Another way to say it, would be "what works against level 3" with +EV that is statistically actionable. IE, risk/reward. So, how can I get him to play musical chairs, when I am sitting in the chair the whole time.

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06-26-2017 , 10:44 AM

#15

a dewd

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Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 4,594

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert_utk

Another way to say it, would be "what works against level 3" with +EV that is statistically actionable. IE, risk/reward. So, how can I get him to play musical chairs, when I am sitting in the chair the whole time.

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By convincing him you are taking a nap and not in the chair

06-26-2017 , 11:06 AM

#16

Yadoula8

banned

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,224

I just looked up the term triple range merge and that is wrong... Value bluffing is another term I have not heard of, and again it is incorrect

What do I mean by move... I'm looking for a general sentence which describes all the plays that we can make once reaching Level Four. If you knew exploitative theory you'd know exactly what I'm talking about... Let me make it a little easier for you. Finish this sentence:

If I was incapable of the fourth Level of thought I would not be able to .........................

06-26-2017 , 11:11 AM

#17

robert_utk

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Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

Call a bet with +EV from a level 3 player. The sentence can be completed by simple semantics.

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06-26-2017 , 11:15 AM

#18

Yadoula8

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Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,224

Well that is cheating, but it's wrong too... A GTO player could make a play that was +EV against that dude without any understanding of any exploitative Level.

06-26-2017 , 11:16 AM

#19

robert_utk

Not From the UK

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yadoula8

Well that is cheating, but it's wrong too... A GTO player could make a play that was +EV against that dude without any understanding of any exploitative Level.

Pffft! No GTO here!

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06-26-2017 , 11:17 AM

#20

robert_utk

Not From the UK

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yadoula8

Well that is cheating, but it's wrong too... A GTO player could make a play that was +EV against that dude without any understanding of any exploitative Level.

Infinite deal same situation over and over, you can not extract EV from lvl 3 without lvl 4.

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06-26-2017 , 11:21 AM

#21

robert_utk

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Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

The point of levels is to exploit other levels. GTO is a cop out.

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06-26-2017 , 11:22 AM

#22

robert_utk

Not From the UK

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

So what play is immune to GTO and is lvl 4?

lel

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06-26-2017 , 11:22 AM

#23

Yadoula8

banned

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,224

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert_utk

Pffft! No GTO here!

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Lol GTO is the devil!!... (I think I can get away with that here)... I personally believe that trusting in GTO plays stops you working out the answers to questions like this. It will be awesome if a beginner cracks this before a reg comes forward. I expect it will be easier for you beginners so don't be dismayed by all these complicated answers. The real answer is pretty simple.

Last edited by Yadoula8; 06-26-2017 at 11:38 AM.