I play in a regularly scheduled tournament that's usually 4 tables to start (approx. 32-40 players). About 8-10 players are co-workers with each other, and the rest are various other friends, acquaintances, etc.

Some of the best players in the game are in the "other" (non-coworker) group and some of the worst players are in the "coworker" group. Overall, though, there are good and mediocre players in each group and while the "other" group probably has more poker savvy and skill on the whole, I don't think there is a huge skill level difference between the groups.

Lately, the organizers, in the interest of "fun", have been assigning "coworkers" to one table, and others randomly to the other three. After about an hour and a half of play, when we get down to 27 players left, we all randomly draw seats for the final 3 tables. Same for the final two and final table. The tournament as a whole usually takes 5 hours to complete.

The organizers are in the "coworker" group. I'm in the "other" (non-coworker) group and thus never get assigned at the outset to play against any of the "co-workers". Theoretically, how much of an EV difference does this non-random first table draw make?

Should I lodge a complaint, or should I let the "coworkers" have their fun and play against each other to start?

I'd complain.

My inner purist says complain but my let it roller says what the heck, leave them to it.

Tourneys are unbalanced at the best of times anyway and how well you do depends, to a degree, on what seat you land in, who is at your table, what cards you get, whether your can play your best game or whether you are forced to adapt - of course the better players do better on average but tourneys are high variance.

I'd just have fun, play my game and develop a style that works for that particular "unbalanced" structure. In a way, it's easier than when it's "completely" random because it is a little easier to work the structure - easier to predict which players will be big stacked deep (or will the co-workers all go deep and be fairly even stacked).

I'd stop playing...

That kind of thing is pretty common. I play similar-sized tournaments in my local charity room, and recently my 2 sons and I all got to play in a tournament together.

We got there together, and early, so we drew seats for one table. When that one was full, anyone who comes in draws a seat for the second table, etc. The result of course is that friends, family members, or anyone who comes to the tournament together is quite likely to be seated at the same table.

My problem with this isn't that the draw isn't random. I'm more worried about cheating. The rules against cell phone use are not enforced, so you could text your hand to someone else at the table. And of course there are all kinds of other signals you could use, for example, using a certain word in conversation could tell your bff that you flopped top pair or better.

It sounds like both of us are dealing with friendly games with only a few serious players. In a situation like that, you just have to decide how badly you're being hurt, and how big a stink you can raise without stirring up a lot of realtionship or workplace trouble.

That's why I've decided to address what I see as the major issue (the cell phone use) and let the less important issues (friends and family seated together) go, unless I think there is a problem such as cheating or slowplaying.

on the bright side though, this setup will ensure that some of the fish go much deeper more often than they normally should which of course will help you if you can survive the tough first table.

Well the difference for a good player between a really juicy table and a table with strong players they have an edge on is what...?

10bb/100 or 2bb/100

Pretty significant.

If your playing for a decent amount of money I would definitely say something, if it's <$20 I wouldn't say anything.

Since "fun" seems to be the main objective of the host I'm guessing it's the latter. Seriously no point in being a rules nit when grabbing a pack of beer and gas costs more than the EV your losing in this setting.

If it is the low level buyin (up to $300) I'd say the edge you get at a soft table is more then 50bb/100 then the figures you mentioned. Having the drunk, weak, over aggressive and plain bad players at your table helps a lot during the early stages and to get far you need to be the one who bust these. Just playing position against a weak field is ~20bb's per hand you get involved in since they will fold to any ace and get it in bad most of the time when they get something. Most of the casual players who make it to the first table breakup in these mini tournaments won't have any chips to play for anyway if and when they get to the second table.

I have been seated at tables in live donk fest where I had no other reg at the table but some guys and gals from a company who had a night on the town + a retired guy who just is weak. I had tripled my stack at the break (~3 hours of play), when I was seated with 2 wining regs and a guy I think is about break even I left the table with 80% of my starting stack. Of course I do understand that the sample size is a bit small, but not having to worry about a pot raise getting called with anything less then the nuts help a lot.

Wow great points bigfish I clearly see how you could attain an unheard of godly winrate in excess of 50bb/100. Your single arbitrary example about tripling your stack against a couple donks one time has completely changed everything I know about winrates. I use to think 10bb/100 meant you were crushing the competition, but no longer the benchmark is now 50bb/100.

Good thing your here to educate us common folk without PHD's.

Hey when you get a minute you might want to reach out to these guys and let them know their databases and the facts they pull from them are all erroneous.

http://www.pokertableratings.com/blo...best-winrates/

Normal hands against the weak players goes something like:

Weak fold:
preflop: weak player raise x3, you call.
flop: weak player checks and fold to a raise.

Weak call:
preflop: weak player (hold high pair) raise x3, you call.
flop (you hit 2-pair): weak player raise, you call
turn (blank): weak player raise, you push. He over call with the ace and you double up

A few off these hands and you will have double/tripled before the break. You will also run into the overaggressive guy who think QTs, A-rag is a bomb and over commit/push since they are oblivious to what stack dept does to push ranges.

All the money in the low buyin live MTT's come from taking the chips of the weaker players the first round and busting them. Usually after the break you are targeting small stacks to get blinds and make them over call/push with rag aces, middle pairs, etc. Once blinds get big you will have the occasional weak player who managed to catch cards the first few levels handing over the blinds and folding the SB to you and all kind of weird plays.

Hey all, thanks for the responses. No, this game is not a "just for fun" donkfest. On the contrary, it is a $500 buyin and while the organizers try to keep everything fun, friendly and light with beer, food and jokes, a not-insignificant number of the regulars do take their poker pretty seriously.

"Not playing" is not really something I'm considering at this point. I'm cashing fairly regularly and think playing is still a +EV proposition on the whole. That said, the mix of players (especially the non-coworkers) are getting better and better as a group, so the non-randomness is a concern.

If you feel that the organizers would be open to your suggestions, then sure complain. But generally, if it's their game, and that's how they want to run it, then you have 2 options: play or dont play.

I just reread this thread, and it doesn't sound like this is a sanctioned game, that is, it's not a game run by a casino, recognized charities, or a tribe. Under the laws of many states, home games that charge a rake are illegal.

Uh. Thanks for the info.

Fwiw, this is not an illegal game. (not sure whether or why that would change your answer).