This is coming from someone who mostly plays live cash games. Somewhat recently, I started playing some online cash games, and started low (.05/.10, .10/.25). Have to say I am so far disappointed by the experience- not because I'm so far not quite a winning player, but just by what seems to me to be a lack of a real "game".

I feel like it's pure "math", and people rarely bluff (relative to live poker). Playing is very mechanial, and instead of strategies you seem to play what feels like a rule book of +EV strategies.

And most of all, from my experiences, profitability is disproportionately dependent on coolering others or getting coolered yourself. In a session with 2-4 tables over a couple hours I'll generally make small money by doing usual strategies like c-betting, finding good squeeze spots, playing position, playing good "TAG" poker (as much as I hate it), and etc other +EV strategies... but whether I make or lose on a table will come down soley to an all in situation: set over set, AK vs AQ, AA vs. KK, AA vs. set , AK vs. AA/KK, etc... a situation which is hard to read into because the opponent is completely anonymous and I have no idea how he plays when he shoves.

How is this a game? More importantly, how is this fun? Is this even poker?

In live cash games, I enjoy the table interaction, I enjoy the fact that people bluff more, and people make plays. I can play aggressive and be put in tough spots, and have to react and think in the short term. I have to maintain composure and think about his playstyle, his personality, his physical tells.

What is poker when you're just against people who are also multitabling and playing standard, doing the same +EV strategies that you are - maybe they have an ever so slight edge or lack of an edge, but does it matter when all your grinded micro-winnings comes down to AA vs. KK? And when you can't read them at all except for their bet size... (well I guess a HUD would help).

Caveats: I figure it gets better in higher stakes online cash games, so I am really talking about low stakes. Also, I am relatively new compared to most people here so what I am saying is something to be challenged. Really curios to hear your responses

It's a more subtle game, with fewer people doing awful stuff. When you get better at poker you'll enjoy it more.

Live poker is a math game as well, unless someone is licking his cookies every time he has the nuts any additional information that you think you have has to be quantified first before it adds any real advantage. The difference is that in live games people are so awful and unbalanced it is really easy to see their mistakes and is much more forgiving in mistakes you make.

Most online players are way more educated and if you were actually better at poker you'd still see massive leaks at 10NL which are waiting to be exploited. The difference is that it is more subtle and small, like folding slightly too much to 3bets or cbetting slightly too wide.

I dont know which site you play on, but imo at at 10NL it is far from math a lot of the times. And these multitablers you speak about, all those russian and ukrainian nits are not playing perfect or even good math game, they are playing straight nit game and mostly are unbalanced.

Or licking his nuts every time he has the cookies

OP live poker is full of fish who dont know how to play and you enjoy it because its a lot easier. Also 10NL - 25NL is far from how you describe it, its absolutely full of fish and the money isn't made from all the all in a cooler spots because villain gets those too, its the small edges where you slowly make you cash.

Poker is much tougher online then live, there's a reason why online crushers come to live and take all the money :P

You need to put in huge volume to show good progress, I'm talking about hundreds of thousands to millions of hands. Winrates online are much lower than live simply because everyone is better and put in countless hours.

Coming from a live background, you're probably not familiar with ideas and concepts like frequencies and equity distribution, or calculating EV and finding exploitative or balanced lines in the decision trees. This is a deep game and require study before you can see that every little edge can make you money e.g. spots where villain defend below optimal, where their ranges are unbalanced etc.

There's alot for you still to learn before you can see through these concepts. For example, I would ask you why in some HU spots, bottom set has higher than top set. Well because having top sets reduce the chances and amount of combination of top pair in Villain's range (card removal effects/blockers). Stuff like this.

The game is very complex and ur obviously new to this at this point to appreciate the beauty and complexity of the game.

If you want to have fun, live poker is still possible and you can still make decent profit. But if you want to improve and be an elite player, you just have to grind it up from the micros. At the end of the day, coolers will balance out with huge volume (500k hands+), so you have to ask yourself if you are willing to put in the effort.

So why are you applying the same strategies as your opponents and hoping to beat them?

It sounds to me like you want to play against people, use the same tactics and strategies that they employ, and yet you also want to gain profit from doing this and are currently wondering why that profit is not forthcoming...

It depends on where one plays. Many type of action out there.

I'd agree that its true that online poker (6 max anyway) is boring and mechanical, probably from micros all the way up to 5/10. Past that the game gets interesting, but is a lot tougher and more stressful.

Most of it is just natural selection. The players who play creatively and are out to have fun went broke, and what we're left with are conservative players maximizing profits.

Try PLO, mixed game, or hu poker if you're looking for less of a grind. But however you feel about the enjoyment of the game you're playing, your first priority should be to make some money. Otherwise you simply won't last long.

I'd be surprised if grinding out a 1bb/100 winrate at 500NL is as much "fun" as beating 10NL for 15bb/100.
The higher you play, the tougher the games become, because villains understand the underlying math/strategy better. Tough games mean longer downswings. If downswings are fun for you, by all means move up. :/

If you want entertainment and enjoy playing against "fun players", stick with live play or microstakes.

A lot of really great responses so far... I actually really appreciate it and feel more informed.

Amazing response, where can I learn and apply some of these concepts? What's the best way for me to improve my game? A lot of it is as you say extremely nuanced in nature, so I'm curious how I can pick some of it up as quickly as possible (of course, I'll be playing a lot).

Honestly, it's hard for me to conceptually grasp in what concrete ways pro players or online wizards are "better" than me if you know what I am saying. Like in sports for example, when someone is better you can see it. In poker, it's hard to grasp what they are doing differently that makes them 1000x better... I mean sure I make some bad calls/folds from time to time, or maybe 3bet too loosely yada yada but that seriously can't be it you know.

Never thought about that. I do want to stick to Cash Games for now as I feel like learning SNGs or HU are a completely different game and I can't apply it anywhere but online. Thanks.

You're getting frustrated, because they're better than you.

If you aren't able to pin-point the mistakes that your opponents you're making, and you also are not winning, then...that should tell you some-thing.

Also, it's worth realizing that a lot of times, in a tough online game, it will be the players with your background/mind-set who are actually the spot at the table -- It's just a different game, and a very different level of play compared to live poker, from what I've seen.

Best of luck.

OP you have it backwards, online poker is "actual poker", live isnt. Stick to live poker, youre going to get crushed online.

I recommend reading some books. There are many good ones but 'Crushing the Microstakes' would certainly be appropriate (can't recall if it's a good place to start though) but other people will have better informed recommendations (and there is a section on this site that will certainly get you started).

Then get HM2 (I think pokertracker is falling by the wayside but I may be mistaken) and start analysing your hand histories. Posting hands in forums is a good idea if you can't work out what you should do differently.
Looking at a hand again later can give you a very different perspective.

HM2 will also let you pick a successful opponent and review the hands you saw them play to see how they do things and try to work out why they make the moves they do and why they work.

Personally i think books suck.

I don't know what you consider proportionate, and I wouldn't really phrase it that way, but it's definitely true over the short-term that there's a huge amount of luck in poker.

I think part of getting good at poker is focusing on what you can control -- your own decisions and not being overly affected by what you can't control.

One day a few weeks ago I had an ace high straight flush and an eight high straight flush within a couple hours. Both times I got shoved on. I can assure you that my (lack of) skill had nothing to do with it.

I don't figure it ever gets better; it probably gets worse. At the higher levels people are so close in skill that luck is even more important. Phil Ivey had a multi-million dollar online loss over an entire year in higher stakes.

In fairness, Ivey was probably a dog in those games.

While it's certainly true that profitability is heavily influenced by big pots, those are not necessarily coolers. By definition the coolers are uncontrollable and will balance out eventually*. However the guy who accurately identifies his opponents' shoving ranges and calls that little bit tighter will outperform as a result of good play that can easily be mistaken for luck: you don't want to play KK if the other guy can only have AA or KK.


* actually that's not really true at all but you'll probably get somewhere near equality in both directions, you're just as likely to get ahead as behind and there's nothing you can do about it anyway.

If every big hand you are in is a cooler, both you and your opponents are responsible for that.

If you would be willing to get it in lighter, it wouldn't be all setups. Now you'll say "but I can't get it in lighter because they always have the nuts!". There's only two possible explanations for that: Either poker is a game where every hand at least one player makes a very strong hand or your logic is flawed..

It isn't pure math and people play badly at the micros. Just because someone has a set strategy for 3betting in position with a decent balance between value and bluffs doesn't mean you can't mess them up by making a lot of tricky plays. You need to start thinking out of the box if you feel everyone is playing the same. Shift betsizes and mix up your ranges and lines. But mostly, find bad players and attack them relentlessly. That's how you make money at the micros.

This is poker far more than live poker is. Physical and personality tells are pretty straightforward, thinking through someone's entire range and establishing how often they bluff how often they value bet etc is pure poker.

I disagree, OP.

I play on Bovada, and never in all my days as a live player have I seen worse (that’s negative EV) plays then on this site. I’m not sure where you’re playing (didn’t read past the OP) but it is indeed a game because people play it.

Personally, when I think of online vs. live, I think of them as separate experiences. Both are poker-but when I sit down at my computer to play, I can wear my lucky pajamas and no one the virtual felt is non-the wiser… If I did this at a brick and mortar room… well that probably wouldn’t go over so well… (then again I might give this a shot-who knows what kind of sick-action it might generate for me!?!)

How is poker fun in general? Well, that is a relative question. How is poker over the internet fun? Apparently for you it is not, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of people on this forum who will disagree with you and for their own good reasons.

That said, you have to decide whether to get over it or get on with it.
Take my advice, the game is different. I come from a live background myself and it took me a good deal of time before I was cashing in… That said-I still have a lot of room for improvement myself!

These forums are a good start towards improvement. Youtube is littered with free poker vids (though not all of these are good study material),books, et cetra-et cetra…

GL to you.