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| Poker Theory General poker theory |
12-09-2011, 10:34 AM
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#121
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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kremlin
Posts: 689
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
i'm not sure i understand the word merged. Merging our range means reducing it to only the top of our range or instead of 3beting with thrash or we should now 3bet with more solid hands like KJ (but keeping the 3bet % in the same numbers)?
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12-09-2011, 07:41 PM
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#122
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudwalker
i'm not sure i understand the word merged. Merging our range means reducing it to only the top of our range or instead of 3beting with thrash or we should now 3bet with more solid hands like KJ (but keeping the 3bet % in the same numbers)?
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Sounds like you've got it.
Basically, break your range down into three parts:
1- da nutz
2- stuff you can flat with for a profit, but not stack off with.
3- stuff you can't flat with profitably.
A polarized range is 1 & 3
A merged range is 1 & 2
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12-13-2011, 02:44 AM
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#123
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journeyman
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: u know what it is
Posts: 250
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin Talken
Sounds like you've got it.
Basically, break your range down into three parts:
1- da nutz
2- stuff you can flat with for a profit, but not stack off with.
3- stuff you can't flat with profitably.
A polarized range is 1 & 3
A merged range is 1 & 2
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Ok this explanation of merging ur 3-betting range mostly makes sense to me, but I was under the impression that range merging, involved 3-betting with 1, 2 & 3. Please explain why we don't wanna 3-bet ATC instead?
I have a feeling that, just like the point of range merging while value betting is to go for thin value by value betting with the utter bottom of our value range in the anticipation that someone will make thin calls while trying to bluff-catch, and when applied to 3-betting pre we're essentially going for thin preflop value (in terms of preflop equity of our hand against villain's hand) in anticipation of the medium-strength hands that villain will flat our 3-bet with. Maybe I just answered my own question, but I'd just like some clarification.
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12-13-2011, 09:11 AM
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#124
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,241
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Quote:
Originally Posted by archimedes11
Ok this explanation of merging ur 3-betting range mostly makes sense to me, but I was under the impression that range merging, involved 3-betting with 1, 2 & 3. Please explain why we don't wanna 3-bet ATC instead?
I have a feeling that, just like the point of range merging while value betting is to go for thin value by value betting with the utter bottom of our value range in the anticipation that someone will make thin calls while trying to bluff-catch, and when applied to 3-betting pre we're essentially going for thin preflop value (in terms of preflop equity of our hand against villain's hand) in anticipation of the medium-strength hands that villain will flat our 3-bet with. Maybe I just answered my own question, but I'd just like some clarification.
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Yep, you absolutely did.
A merged range CAN certainly include ATC, and that occurs when our range is so much stronger than our opponent's that we can literally take an aggressive action with ATC and show a profit.
However, for the sake of just making the concept clear--
Generally, you are merging because your opponent calls with too wide a range. When your opponent calls too often, bluffing usually isn't a very good idea. :P
The same is true for why we don't include our thin-value hands when we are polarizing. We polarize when we don't expect our opponent to call much compared to how often he'll raise or fold. So we aren't getting value from our medium strength hands. So we raise our air if our opponent is going to fold an exploitable amount of the time.
Last edited by Ronin Talken; 12-13-2011 at 09:18 AM.
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01-05-2012, 03:55 AM
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#125
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centurion
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: vancouver bc canada
Posts: 103
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Beore i read anymore what is ATC and GTO? But so far very good read, i can already see how this can improve my play, thanks
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01-05-2012, 08:39 AM
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#126
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 12,569
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgking111
Beore i read anymore what is ATC and GTO? But so far very good read, i can already see how this can improve my play, thanks
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Any Two Cards
Game Theory Optimal
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01-05-2012, 05:48 PM
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#127
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centurion
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: vancouver bc canada
Posts: 103
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks
Any Two Cards
Game Theory Optimal
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lol whenever i ask, the answer sounds so f--in obvious. thanks
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01-06-2012, 07:17 PM
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#128
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centurion
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: dubl barrelling fish tc if dey fold
Posts: 122
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Excellent post. WP Ronin.
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01-07-2012, 07:58 PM
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#129
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adept
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,163
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Quote:
Originally Posted by x148318
Excellent post. WP Ronin.
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Couldn't agree more. I think I first found this thread like a year ago or something and have probably reread it 4-5x. Def one of my favorite all time posts on 2p2.
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01-19-2012, 04:16 PM
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#130
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enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 60
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
I've only read the first 2 pages but there's something I don't quite understand. If we start flatting OOP vs Villain's polarized 3-betting range, and if we miss (which we will most of the time), and Villain always c-bets, then what? And what if Villain generally likes to barrel/bluff? I mean, unless we flop amazingly well we'll be put in an extremely difficult position almost always, right? How do we adjust to this? The way I see it this makes us super exploitable, unless the Villain for some reason never c-bets or shuts down on the turn.
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01-19-2012, 04:24 PM
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#131
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adept
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,163
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anden
I've only read the first 2 pages but there's something I don't quite understand. If we start flatting OOP vs Villain's polarized 3-betting range, and if we miss (which we will most of the time), and Villain always c-bets, then what? And what if Villain generally likes to barrel/bluff? I mean, unless we flop amazingly well we'll be put in an extremely difficult position almost always, right? How do we adjust to this? The way I see it this makes us super exploitable, unless the Villain for some reason never c-bets or shuts down on the turn.
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By flatting more hands in this spot, we make ourselves more difficult to play against by having a wider - but still stronger than villains 3bet range. If we only flat premium hands then villain can 3bet bluff us all day and not put in any more money when we continue.
You're going to have to not play fit or fold here too. I'd recommend sticking with adding suited broadway hands because if you are 100bb deep, flop a fd and 2 overs or the top end of an oesd you can profitably crai on the flop. Assuming of course villain has a wide 3bet range which is what this post is trying to combat.
Once you're better at reading villains and board textures you can make moves by check raising or floating flops and turns with a wider range of hands.
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01-20-2012, 05:36 AM
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#132
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,241
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anden
I've only read the first 2 pages but there's something I don't quite understand. If we start flatting OOP vs Villain's polarized 3-betting range, and if we miss (which we will most of the time), and Villain always c-bets, then what? And what if Villain generally likes to barrel/bluff? I mean, unless we flop amazingly well we'll be put in an extremely difficult position almost always, right? How do we adjust to this? The way I see it this makes us super exploitable, unless the Villain for some reason never c-bets or shuts down on the turn.
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If you flat a 3bet oop, it's because you believe your opponent has a polarized 3bet range and it is weighted too heavily to air (generally, I suggest flatting with a big PP before trying it with AK, AQ, KQ, etc.).
If that is true, and it's true that your opponent always C-Bets, then there's not much reason to fold. There's also not much reason to feel like you're being exploited. It's a highly polarizing situation, but if you have a handle on your opponent's game, you're playing optimally. I'd love it if my opponent barreled off his stack with Q3s whenever I was dealt AQhigh.
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01-21-2012, 08:47 AM
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#133
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grinder
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: BRM city
Posts: 570
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
Start 4 betting light. Check raise the flop. Or, donk shove the flop. Thats about all you can do besides folding.
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01-21-2012, 12:17 PM
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#134
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncla
Start 4 betting light. Check raise the flop. Or, donk shove the flop. Thats about all you can do besides folding.
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Donk betting pretty much ruins the entire concept of flatting OOP to induce spew from air. If you employ the strategy of exploiting a polarized range (which is weighted to air) by flatting 3bets OOP, you should never find yourself donk betting.
Check raising also limits the amount of spew that can be induced, but it isn't nearly as big of a deal. It's not going to be optimal unless your opponent's air has more equity in the pot than you gain from his spew on the turn. People feel more comfortable with this line because it doesn't require knowledge of your opponent's 2-barrel tendencies.
Obviously, it's going to be very difficult to add this to your arsenal. It requires that we don't lose sight of the logic that brought us here, and forces us to navigate our way through a polarized range.
However, our range shouldn't be capped. It'll probably help to know that you play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and TT the same way you are playing AK and AQ in this spot. I'd suggest employing this strategy with the top of your range before attempting to do so with hands like AK, AK and KQ. By flatting with AA first, you're going to induce the same spew from air, get underpants to value-own themselves and figure out how your opponent reacts in this situation. Then, you can add unpaired hands to the mix.
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01-21-2012, 12:29 PM
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#135
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old hand
Join Date: May 2011
Location: land of the drawing dead
Posts: 1,306
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Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
lol, underpants
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