Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > General Poker Discussion > Poker Theory

Notices

Poker Theory General poker theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-09-2011, 10:34 AM   #121
grinder
 
Proudwalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kremlin
Posts: 689
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

i'm not sure i understand the word merged. Merging our range means reducing it to only the top of our range or instead of 3beting with thrash or we should now 3bet with more solid hands like KJ (but keeping the 3bet % in the same numbers)?
Proudwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2011, 07:41 PM   #122
old hand
 
Ronin Talken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudwalker View Post
i'm not sure i understand the word merged. Merging our range means reducing it to only the top of our range or instead of 3beting with thrash or we should now 3bet with more solid hands like KJ (but keeping the 3bet % in the same numbers)?
Sounds like you've got it.
Basically, break your range down into three parts:
1- da nutz
2- stuff you can flat with for a profit, but not stack off with.
3- stuff you can't flat with profitably.

A polarized range is 1 & 3
A merged range is 1 & 2
Ronin Talken is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 02:44 AM   #123
journeyman
 
archimedes11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: u know what it is
Posts: 250
Smile Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin Talken View Post
Sounds like you've got it.
Basically, break your range down into three parts:
1- da nutz
2- stuff you can flat with for a profit, but not stack off with.
3- stuff you can't flat with profitably.

A polarized range is 1 & 3
A merged range is 1 & 2
Ok this explanation of merging ur 3-betting range mostly makes sense to me, but I was under the impression that range merging, involved 3-betting with 1, 2 & 3. Please explain why we don't wanna 3-bet ATC instead?

I have a feeling that, just like the point of range merging while value betting is to go for thin value by value betting with the utter bottom of our value range in the anticipation that someone will make thin calls while trying to bluff-catch, and when applied to 3-betting pre we're essentially going for thin preflop value (in terms of preflop equity of our hand against villain's hand) in anticipation of the medium-strength hands that villain will flat our 3-bet with. Maybe I just answered my own question, but I'd just like some clarification.
archimedes11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 09:11 AM   #124
old hand
 
Ronin Talken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,241
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by archimedes11 View Post
Ok this explanation of merging ur 3-betting range mostly makes sense to me, but I was under the impression that range merging, involved 3-betting with 1, 2 & 3. Please explain why we don't wanna 3-bet ATC instead?

I have a feeling that, just like the point of range merging while value betting is to go for thin value by value betting with the utter bottom of our value range in the anticipation that someone will make thin calls while trying to bluff-catch, and when applied to 3-betting pre we're essentially going for thin preflop value (in terms of preflop equity of our hand against villain's hand) in anticipation of the medium-strength hands that villain will flat our 3-bet with. Maybe I just answered my own question, but I'd just like some clarification.
Yep, you absolutely did.

A merged range CAN certainly include ATC, and that occurs when our range is so much stronger than our opponent's that we can literally take an aggressive action with ATC and show a profit.

However, for the sake of just making the concept clear--

Generally, you are merging because your opponent calls with too wide a range. When your opponent calls too often, bluffing usually isn't a very good idea. :P

The same is true for why we don't include our thin-value hands when we are polarizing. We polarize when we don't expect our opponent to call much compared to how often he'll raise or fold. So we aren't getting value from our medium strength hands. So we raise our air if our opponent is going to fold an exploitable amount of the time.

Last edited by Ronin Talken; 12-13-2011 at 09:18 AM.
Ronin Talken is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 03:55 AM   #125
centurion
 
dgking111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: vancouver bc canada
Posts: 103
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Beore i read anymore what is ATC and GTO? But so far very good read, i can already see how this can improve my play, thanks
dgking111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 08:39 AM   #126
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
RustyBrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 12,569
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgking111 View Post
Beore i read anymore what is ATC and GTO? But so far very good read, i can already see how this can improve my play, thanks
Any Two Cards
Game Theory Optimal
RustyBrooks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 05:48 PM   #127
centurion
 
dgking111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: vancouver bc canada
Posts: 103
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
Any Two Cards
Game Theory Optimal
lol whenever i ask, the answer sounds so f--in obvious. thanks
dgking111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2012, 07:17 PM   #128
centurion
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: dubl barrelling fish tc if dey fold
Posts: 122
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Excellent post. WP Ronin.
x148318 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2012, 07:58 PM   #129
adept
 
LazyAce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,163
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by x148318 View Post
Excellent post. WP Ronin.
Couldn't agree more. I think I first found this thread like a year ago or something and have probably reread it 4-5x. Def one of my favorite all time posts on 2p2.
LazyAce is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 04:16 PM   #130
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 60
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

I've only read the first 2 pages but there's something I don't quite understand. If we start flatting OOP vs Villain's polarized 3-betting range, and if we miss (which we will most of the time), and Villain always c-bets, then what? And what if Villain generally likes to barrel/bluff? I mean, unless we flop amazingly well we'll be put in an extremely difficult position almost always, right? How do we adjust to this? The way I see it this makes us super exploitable, unless the Villain for some reason never c-bets or shuts down on the turn.
Anden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2012, 04:24 PM   #131
adept
 
LazyAce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,163
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anden View Post
I've only read the first 2 pages but there's something I don't quite understand. If we start flatting OOP vs Villain's polarized 3-betting range, and if we miss (which we will most of the time), and Villain always c-bets, then what? And what if Villain generally likes to barrel/bluff? I mean, unless we flop amazingly well we'll be put in an extremely difficult position almost always, right? How do we adjust to this? The way I see it this makes us super exploitable, unless the Villain for some reason never c-bets or shuts down on the turn.
By flatting more hands in this spot, we make ourselves more difficult to play against by having a wider - but still stronger than villains 3bet range. If we only flat premium hands then villain can 3bet bluff us all day and not put in any more money when we continue.

You're going to have to not play fit or fold here too. I'd recommend sticking with adding suited broadway hands because if you are 100bb deep, flop a fd and 2 overs or the top end of an oesd you can profitably crai on the flop. Assuming of course villain has a wide 3bet range which is what this post is trying to combat.

Once you're better at reading villains and board textures you can make moves by check raising or floating flops and turns with a wider range of hands.
LazyAce is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 05:36 AM   #132
old hand
 
Ronin Talken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,241
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anden View Post
I've only read the first 2 pages but there's something I don't quite understand. If we start flatting OOP vs Villain's polarized 3-betting range, and if we miss (which we will most of the time), and Villain always c-bets, then what? And what if Villain generally likes to barrel/bluff? I mean, unless we flop amazingly well we'll be put in an extremely difficult position almost always, right? How do we adjust to this? The way I see it this makes us super exploitable, unless the Villain for some reason never c-bets or shuts down on the turn.
If you flat a 3bet oop, it's because you believe your opponent has a polarized 3bet range and it is weighted too heavily to air (generally, I suggest flatting with a big PP before trying it with AK, AQ, KQ, etc.).

If that is true, and it's true that your opponent always C-Bets, then there's not much reason to fold. There's also not much reason to feel like you're being exploited. It's a highly polarizing situation, but if you have a handle on your opponent's game, you're playing optimally. I'd love it if my opponent barreled off his stack with Q3s whenever I was dealt AQhigh.
Ronin Talken is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 08:47 AM   #133
grinder
 
brandoncla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: BRM city
Posts: 570
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

Start 4 betting light. Check raise the flop. Or, donk shove the flop. Thats about all you can do besides folding.
brandoncla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 12:17 PM   #134
old hand
 
Ronin Talken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncla View Post
Start 4 betting light. Check raise the flop. Or, donk shove the flop. Thats about all you can do besides folding.
Donk betting pretty much ruins the entire concept of flatting OOP to induce spew from air. If you employ the strategy of exploiting a polarized range (which is weighted to air) by flatting 3bets OOP, you should never find yourself donk betting.

Check raising also limits the amount of spew that can be induced, but it isn't nearly as big of a deal. It's not going to be optimal unless your opponent's air has more equity in the pot than you gain from his spew on the turn. People feel more comfortable with this line because it doesn't require knowledge of your opponent's 2-barrel tendencies.

Obviously, it's going to be very difficult to add this to your arsenal. It requires that we don't lose sight of the logic that brought us here, and forces us to navigate our way through a polarized range.

However, our range shouldn't be capped. It'll probably help to know that you play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and TT the same way you are playing AK and AQ in this spot. I'd suggest employing this strategy with the top of your range before attempting to do so with hands like AK, AK and KQ. By flatting with AA first, you're going to induce the same spew from air, get underpants to value-own themselves and figure out how your opponent reacts in this situation. Then, you can add unpaired hands to the mix.
Ronin Talken is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 12:29 PM   #135
old hand
 
zumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: land of the drawing dead
Posts: 1,306
Re: NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet

lol, underpants
zumby is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive