NLHE: 3betting and facing a 3bet
01-02-2014
, 03:59 PM
Quote:
First of all, thanks again for the kind words. Glad to see this is helping people.
And forgive me if this reply is..."meh", I'm on my phone.
To summarize (for my ease):
- when should we have a merged/polarized 4bet range?
- how do we structure a merged 4bet range?
- how do we structure a polarized 4bet range?
- opening with a polarized range?
We are facing a 3bet which is merged, and are creating a 4betting range. First, I hope I covered this rule: "except when a bet is committing/all-in". In that situation, we can't fold air, so we might as well have the top of our range (when all-in, we are never getting raised...when committed, we are effectively all-in--but we will also be bluffing with air sometimes...so at this point, the rule kind of falls apart).
First, does a 4bet commit so much of effective stacks that you can't fold air? If so, obviously merge. There is a great article about types of hands to 3bet all-in when 25bb deep. It's from 2009 I believe, but still a phenomenal post. Basically, it outlines how, when widening your shoving range, certain types of hands have more equity than others against different types of players.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/58...ective-444194/
As for sizing, you can probably manipulate your opponent with your sizing based on the types of hands you have. It's a HU SnG trick, and while it seems exploitable...no one notices. Just a few ideas:
- shove big Ax instead of raise-call. Smaller Ax might not shove over the top, but it might call.
- shove small-mid PPs. Don't let JT think it has fold equity...
- raise-call monsters
- raise-call hands that dominate hands your opponent will reshove with but not call a shove (in a hu sng, stuff like KJ).
Is your opponent so deep that he is going to flat your 4bet more often than raise? Are you playing against isildur1?
Good luck structuring that.
Basically, I've never found any resources on flatting 4bets other than a few podcasts that talk about it happening 100bbs deep. This us because...frankly, it doesn't happen much.
BUT, I think research on this would best be done via PLO vids (particularly HU cash vids). The players do get deep enough for this to happen, and there are a lot of cool spots that it makes a lot of sense. Of course, NLHE doesn't have the same equity relationships preflop...but it can get you thinking.
Think about it this way though: the equity of the second nuts runs along a bell-curve. At a certain PSR, stacking off with the second nuts is -EV. Remember that when structuring your ranges. 500bbs deep effective, is KK a 4bet or a flat? What about 98s? AXs, etc? Generally, when effectively very deep at a FR table, I flat hands like K2s with aspirations to overflush a SC. Conversely, I am more likely to 3bet my SCs, because I want the PSR at a point where I can play my FDs hard. I can't do very well in terms of an outline here, because there just isn't much literature/vids/posts/hands where this dynamic is in place. But, basically, my standard range after a certain stack depth slims to either the nuts, or air with blockers to the nuts. There was a deuce-plays podcast which dissects a hand played by durrrr, eastgate and greenstein where durrrr abuses this concept with QT on a T22 board. I don remember the episode number, but I also suggest that for working on your deepstack game.
Polarizing your 4bet range is tougher, because we have to create two ranges:
- our stackoff range (likely a tight one)
- air
First, decide what hands you constitute as the fistpumps. Then, decide what ratio of nuts to air is the most correct. As a standard, I start 2:1 weighted to air and adjust to either 1:1 or add more air.
You are generally making a fairly small 4bet. IP, between 22 and 25bbs. OOP, probably 25bbs. Let's just say we are only fistpumping with KK+ and AK. That's 2.1% of total hands. Our opponent is pretty wild with his 3bets, but nitty with his stackoffs. So we want to 4bet a ton of air. We start at 2.5:1 with plans to adjust (note: this isn't optimal, but I can't maths, particularly in the morning). So we want about 5% of total hands as our air. What hands do we choose?
Our equity is irrelevant with our air--that's why it's polarized. But by far, the best types of hands to 4bet as air are AXs hands. If you have Ax, you cut the number of possible combos of AA from 6 to 3, and AK from 16 to 12. In the case your opponent surprises you with a flat, your hand will play pretty well postflop. He's likely not flatting any Ax hand other than AA, so any Axx board is probably yours. And there are FDs abound. So, just open pokerstove and add Axs hands until you get to 5%.
I beleive the last part of your question was about applying these general concepts to other spots, particularly when opening the pot? Obviously, you don't want to fold a +EV hand, which is why we polarize our 3bets. And generally, limping is incorrect, so at a FR or 6max table, it's best to just open as you normally would. However, there is one spot where you are definitely onto something: Super Turbo HU SnGs (and 25bb-13bb in ant HU scenario). Mers has a great video about limping hands like QT that play well postflop but cannot stack-off, and raising your stamped range and corresponding air like J3. This is against villains who are going to 3bet-shove a wide range against an open. Your stamped range, albeit light, dominates your opponent's. You can easily fold your air, and you can call a raise IP with QT or play a limped pot happily.
And, yes, this concept is easily applied other places when structuring ranges, but I'm working on a really big post that discusses this. I'll wait for that. Feel free to pm me.
Just getting to work now. Hope that answers your questions and is generally helpful. Have a great one.
And forgive me if this reply is..."meh", I'm on my phone.
To summarize (for my ease):
- when should we have a merged/polarized 4bet range?
- how do we structure a merged 4bet range?
- how do we structure a polarized 4bet range?
- opening with a polarized range?
We are facing a 3bet which is merged, and are creating a 4betting range. First, I hope I covered this rule: "except when a bet is committing/all-in". In that situation, we can't fold air, so we might as well have the top of our range (when all-in, we are never getting raised...when committed, we are effectively all-in--but we will also be bluffing with air sometimes...so at this point, the rule kind of falls apart).
First, does a 4bet commit so much of effective stacks that you can't fold air? If so, obviously merge. There is a great article about types of hands to 3bet all-in when 25bb deep. It's from 2009 I believe, but still a phenomenal post. Basically, it outlines how, when widening your shoving range, certain types of hands have more equity than others against different types of players.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/58...ective-444194/
As for sizing, you can probably manipulate your opponent with your sizing based on the types of hands you have. It's a HU SnG trick, and while it seems exploitable...no one notices. Just a few ideas:
- shove big Ax instead of raise-call. Smaller Ax might not shove over the top, but it might call.
- shove small-mid PPs. Don't let JT think it has fold equity...
- raise-call monsters
- raise-call hands that dominate hands your opponent will reshove with but not call a shove (in a hu sng, stuff like KJ).
Is your opponent so deep that he is going to flat your 4bet more often than raise? Are you playing against isildur1?
Good luck structuring that.
Basically, I've never found any resources on flatting 4bets other than a few podcasts that talk about it happening 100bbs deep. This us because...frankly, it doesn't happen much.
BUT, I think research on this would best be done via PLO vids (particularly HU cash vids). The players do get deep enough for this to happen, and there are a lot of cool spots that it makes a lot of sense. Of course, NLHE doesn't have the same equity relationships preflop...but it can get you thinking.
Think about it this way though: the equity of the second nuts runs along a bell-curve. At a certain PSR, stacking off with the second nuts is -EV. Remember that when structuring your ranges. 500bbs deep effective, is KK a 4bet or a flat? What about 98s? AXs, etc? Generally, when effectively very deep at a FR table, I flat hands like K2s with aspirations to overflush a SC. Conversely, I am more likely to 3bet my SCs, because I want the PSR at a point where I can play my FDs hard. I can't do very well in terms of an outline here, because there just isn't much literature/vids/posts/hands where this dynamic is in place. But, basically, my standard range after a certain stack depth slims to either the nuts, or air with blockers to the nuts. There was a deuce-plays podcast which dissects a hand played by durrrr, eastgate and greenstein where durrrr abuses this concept with QT on a T22 board. I don remember the episode number, but I also suggest that for working on your deepstack game.
Polarizing your 4bet range is tougher, because we have to create two ranges:
- our stackoff range (likely a tight one)
- air
First, decide what hands you constitute as the fistpumps. Then, decide what ratio of nuts to air is the most correct. As a standard, I start 2:1 weighted to air and adjust to either 1:1 or add more air.
You are generally making a fairly small 4bet. IP, between 22 and 25bbs. OOP, probably 25bbs. Let's just say we are only fistpumping with KK+ and AK. That's 2.1% of total hands. Our opponent is pretty wild with his 3bets, but nitty with his stackoffs. So we want to 4bet a ton of air. We start at 2.5:1 with plans to adjust (note: this isn't optimal, but I can't maths, particularly in the morning). So we want about 5% of total hands as our air. What hands do we choose?
Our equity is irrelevant with our air--that's why it's polarized. But by far, the best types of hands to 4bet as air are AXs hands. If you have Ax, you cut the number of possible combos of AA from 6 to 3, and AK from 16 to 12. In the case your opponent surprises you with a flat, your hand will play pretty well postflop. He's likely not flatting any Ax hand other than AA, so any Axx board is probably yours. And there are FDs abound. So, just open pokerstove and add Axs hands until you get to 5%.
I beleive the last part of your question was about applying these general concepts to other spots, particularly when opening the pot? Obviously, you don't want to fold a +EV hand, which is why we polarize our 3bets. And generally, limping is incorrect, so at a FR or 6max table, it's best to just open as you normally would. However, there is one spot where you are definitely onto something: Super Turbo HU SnGs (and 25bb-13bb in ant HU scenario). Mers has a great video about limping hands like QT that play well postflop but cannot stack-off, and raising your stamped range and corresponding air like J3. This is against villains who are going to 3bet-shove a wide range against an open. Your stamped range, albeit light, dominates your opponent's. You can easily fold your air, and you can call a raise IP with QT or play a limped pot happily.
And, yes, this concept is easily applied other places when structuring ranges, but I'm working on a really big post that discusses this. I'll wait for that. Feel free to pm me.
Just getting to work now. Hope that answers your questions and is generally helpful. Have a great one.
The link you mention about is a great article about types of hands to 3bet all-in when 25bb deep, doesnt work, can you provide this information to plug a leak in my game please.
Michi Meow
05-18-2014
, 02:44 PM
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, 06:21 AM
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