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Old 05-01-2017, 11:13 AM   #26
blackspoker
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Do you think nil poker(played as holdem: nil holdem) will be more aggressive(not boring) when played as hyper-turbo(sng) or cashgame(20buy-in max) in comparison to same type of games in texas holdem(52-card deck). I think it would be more aggressive than played as holdem(52-card deck) as I believe that you can not play tight and win it(playing against average skilled poker players). There is too big gap when noone hits nothing on board, so good players(and everybody else too) will just need to bluff more, otherwise blinds will eat you. So, i believe this makes every other think go up(hero calling,…) and therefore i believe nil holdem(hyper-turbo and CG(20buy-in max))will be played more aggresive than same type of games played in texas holdem(52-card deck).

I know that a lot of people have said that nil poker would be boring to play(in majority type of poker games).I really appreciate all the constructive thoughts, but I do not believe it will be boring. It is really hard to predict. For those who think playing nil poker is going to be boring: Do you think it will be boring even in the case above? As i see really a lot of raising, hero calling, bluffing,..
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:28 AM   #27
RustyBrooks
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

People will just adjust. Long ago UltimateBet added a game called "Royal Holdem" which was played with a deck of 20 cards, just the broadway cards. So on the river, the worst possible hand is a broadway straight followed by full houses on up.

When it was first introduced there was a TON of action because everyone got dealt a "premium" hand every hand. It didn't take long for it to reach equilibrium where most people tightened up to more or less normal percentages and people stopped paying off with bad full houses, etc.

People's intuitive defintion of a "good hand" on various streets was wrong to start, but without even doing any math or study or work, they eventually settled on an intuitive hand value over time. The same will happen with your game. At first people will fold more because they'll hit less and there will possibly be more bluffing because of it (or at least, bluffing will be more successful which is a different kind of boring). But people will get used to it and call more lightly.

It doesn't really matter what cards are in your deck. Hands combined with boards create equity and once people know how to estimate equity they play accordingly.
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:23 PM   #28
pocketzeroes
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
People will just adjust. Long ago UltimateBet added a game called "Royal Holdem" which was played with a deck of 20 cards, just the broadway cards. So on the river, the worst possible hand is a broadway straight followed by full houses on up.

When it was first introduced there was a TON of action because everyone got dealt a "premium" hand every hand. It didn't take long for it to reach equilibrium where most people tightened up to more or less normal percentages and people stopped paying off with bad full houses, etc.

People's intuitive defintion of a "good hand" on various streets was wrong to start, but without even doing any math or study or work, they eventually settled on an intuitive hand value over time. The same will happen with your game. At first people will fold more because they'll hit less and there will possibly be more bluffing because of it (or at least, bluffing will be more successful which is a different kind of boring). But people will get used to it and call more lightly.

It doesn't really matter what cards are in your deck. Hands combined with boards create equity and once people know how to estimate equity they play accordingly.
This makes it sound like all full-ring games with a given betting structure will result in the same frequencies, if played optimally. E.g., UTG will open X% of the time, regardless of game. There will be an average of N players who make it past the first betting round, regardless of game. Etc.

I think the deck/hand combinations would change things.

Doesn't a game like PLO, played optimally, get to later betting rounds much more often than hold'em because equities run so close?
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:59 PM   #29
Maroel
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

There is no need to invent any new poker game when you already have the great game of Pot Limit Omaha
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:54 AM   #30
blackspoker
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
People will just adjust. Long ago UltimateBet added a game called "Royal Holdem" which was played with a deck of 20 cards, just the broadway cards. So on the river, the worst possible hand is a broadway straight followed by full houses on up.

When it was first introduced there was a TON of action because everyone got dealt a "premium" hand every hand. It didn't take long for it to reach equilibrium where most people tightened up to more or less normal percentages and people stopped paying off with bad full houses, etc.

People's intuitive defintion of a "good hand" on various streets was wrong to start, but without even doing any math or study or work, they eventually settled on an intuitive hand value over time. The same will happen with your game. At first people will fold more because they'll hit less and there will possibly be more bluffing because of it (or at least, bluffing will be more successful which is a different kind of boring). But people will get used to it and call more lightly.

It doesn't really matter what cards are in your deck. Hands combined with boards create equity and once people know how to estimate equity they play accordingly.
Interesting post. Thank you for writting it.

If it is true what you have written:
this means more "air" calling on average at nil poker vs poker(52-card deck). Royal holdem has less cards than poker(52-card deck) so people(less experienced and more experienced) tighten up(like you mentioned meaning of "good hands"). Tighten up is easier to do than loosen up(raising, bluffing,...). While nil poker has more cards than poker, like you mentioned people should loosen up on average. Loosen up might means to play "crazy" raising poker, as the game evolves(it is easier to define perfect spot to tighten up, while loosen up can means just a lot of raising and calling,..). But yes this is really hard to predict.

I will make an online app in the near future, where people could play nil poker, so I guess time will tell.

I can not thank you enough for taking your time and writting your post.

Last edited by blackspoker; 05-03-2017 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:59 AM   #31
blackspoker
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
This makes it sound like all full-ring games with a given betting structure will result in the same frequencies, if played optimally. E.g., UTG will open X% of the time, regardless of game. There will be an average of N players who make it past the first betting round, regardless of game. Etc.

I think the deck/hand combinations would change things.

Doesn't a game like PLO, played optimally, get to later betting rounds much more often than hold'em because equities run so close?
Yes, you made some interesting points. I guess it is really hard to say. I will make a nil poker - online app in near future, so I guess we will see.

Thank you for taking your time while posting to this thread. It really means a lot to me.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:03 AM   #32
blackspoker
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

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Originally Posted by Maroel View Post
There is no need to invent any new poker game when you already have the great game of Pot Limit Omaha
Yes, I understand what you are saying, but I think it is cool to come up with new poker variant.

Last edited by blackspoker; 05-03-2017 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:48 AM   #33
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

I would be much more interested in playing this game if there were only one or two, at most four, nil cards.

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Old 05-03-2017, 04:34 PM   #34
CrockPot1027
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroel View Post
There is no need to invent any new poker game when you already have the great game of Pot Limit Omaha
Yup
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:58 AM   #35
Keruli
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

I think some tweaks to the deep+antes format could increase the longevity of NLHE:

a) minimum buyin of over 100bb, maybe 200bb, so 200-300bb tables for example.

This counters the fact that regs are increasingly finding simplified strategies that drastically decrease opponents' possible edges with 100bb. (For example: 3bet big from SB, then, given the right board, cbet big and then just overbet shove turn. This effectively negates the IP player's ability to use position to his advantage. It doesn't matter how good the IP player is at positional play, he won't find a big edge in this spot and won't find a way to make things difficult for the OOP player.)
(This point pre-supposes that smaller possible edges decrease game longevity. maybe this is debatable.)

b) ante structure that increases frequency of 3handed+ pots

This delays bots' effectiveness, as AI is still fairly far away from being good at 3handed pots from what i gather.

I think there are many different ways to do this. They all revolve around re-distributing ante money to incentivise a third player to see a flop or VPIP. I think some of the ways promote collusion, but hopefully some don't. Here are a couple i came up with:
variant 1): Players who see the flop don't have to pay an ante next hand. (or: the third, fourth etc. players to see the flop don't have to pay an ante next hand.)
variant 2): Antes go into a seperate pot that is only added to the main pot if 3+ players see the flop. If not, then it is added to the antes pot of the next hand, for which the same applies. (This has various fun up-sides, but also the down-side that one would have to solve the problem of what happens when a new player joins the table while there is an ante-pot. Maybe simply lock the table during hands where there is an ante pot, thus only letting a new player sit down for a hand directly after a 3handed+ flop.)

Last edited by Keruli; 05-04-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 05-04-2017, 01:51 PM   #36
pocketzeroes
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keruli View Post
This delays bots' effectiveness, as AI is still fairly far away from being good at 3handed pots from what i gather.
It won't take more than a couple/few years for AI/bots to get very good multihanded, IMO - with the advancements in deep learning, etc.

The architecture of the bot's neural network(s) might be a little difficult to get right, but once you have something that's trainable, you should be able to create small populations of bots each playing against eachother for millions of hands, and constantly learning. Then maybe just mix their strategies together as the result bot... A bot like this might not be as good as humans at recognizing other humans' follies (especially since you're training the bots against other bots), and this is an important aspect of optimal multihanded play... But it should still be possible, IMO, to create a bot this way that wins pretty substantially multihanded against good players, and can easily be trained to play whichever game for whichever stakes you want it to. Maybe 5-6 years max til something like this exists and is better than humans.
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Old 05-04-2017, 02:08 PM   #37
Keruli
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Re: NEW POKER VARIANT: The most skill-based poker game... What do you think of it?

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Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
It won't take more than a couple/few years for AI/bots to get very good multihanded, IMO - with the advancements in deep learning, etc.

The architecture of the bot's neural network(s) might be a little difficult to get right, but once you have something that's trainable, you should be able to create small populations of bots each playing against eachother for millions of hands, and constantly learning. Then maybe just mix their strategies together as the result bot... A bot like this might not be as good as humans at recognizing other humans' follies (especially since you're training the bots against other bots), and this is an important aspect of optimal multihanded play... But it should still be possible, IMO, to create a bot this way that wins pretty substantially multihanded against good players, and can easily be trained to play whichever game for whichever stakes you want it to. Maybe 5-6 years max til something like this exists and is better than humans.
i agree, albeit being less informed on the matter than you.

i was merely talking about increasing longevity though, maybe adding a few years.
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