This has been on my mind for a while now and i would really like to hear what you guys have to say about it... So the 25nl 6max cash games i play in are absolutely loaded with drunk lagtards and stations. They are the typical fish that can't find the fold button, and especially don't like folding to flop cbets. A high and K high are usually autocalling cbets. So not only do they never fold, but they also don't understand showdown value, so they are betting, and a lot of the time double and even triple barreling their 2nd, 3rd and 4th pairs. So i'm kind of in a quandary over how to play all my broadway hands. 2/3 of the time i'm going to miss with my broadways and can't rely on cbetting because that doesn't work not nearly enough to be +EV. I can't barrel with equity either, like if i have KQ on T45 and the turn is a J, because people just can't let go of their pairs often enough for the play to be profitable. So it doesn't seem so profitable to continue raising 3 or 4x pre with a KQ type hand and having to c/f 2/3 of the time. But does the fact that the time i actually make a pair the other third of the time and get paid off for a bet or two make the play profitable in the long run?

Also i'd like to mention 3betting. Let's say a 60/25 guy opens from the CO and i have AK OTB. This is usually a very standard 3bet for value, but the problem i'm running into is that when he calls and the flop comes something like J96 it's really hard for me to take the hand down right there with a cbet. If i check behind with my showdown value i often face a lead on the turn so often and i end up being outplayed a lot. Thoughts???

If they always call c bets then it's quite simple. Reduce your c bets. C bet when you have something. That might result in more fold equity on your c bets in the future as well.

Yes, definitely. The only issue with that is that i can barely ever get to showdown with my showdown value hands like A high. They're constantly leading turn or leading river and i find myself punting 3bb after 3bb and a lot of the time 4bb and 5bb when there are limpers.

If they're constantly leading the turn/river, then they're not calling stations.

That's what I was about to reply. Bad players that call flop/turn then bet when you show weakness or donk to steal the pot are actually a mild form of the maniac. They tend to be mixed up with calling stations because they have a low AF (they call so much) but if you have a detailed HUD, their AFQ is often not that low. Out of position, they aren't that easy to manoeuvre.

yes, thanks for clarifying. these villains are of that description, borderline maniacs; always calling and always donking/leading, not the typical loosepassive that plays fit or fold. so my question is whether it's more +EV to keep raising pre with my broadway hands and then c/f when i miss, or to limp them and only start betting once i make a hand?

and also whether i should be 3betting a lot of my broadway hands for value both IP and OOP. please be specific!

It is always best to raise hands that are likely to be ahead. The trick here is that you can't give up so easy against them. Maybe you cbet, maybe you don't, but just because they start barrelling the turn/river doesn't mean you have to be folding. I mean, if they're doing it with bottom pair, call if you have odds, fold if you don't. If they're doing it with air, then call with high card hands. Double barrel your AK/AQ type hands - if they're that loose then they're probably floating you with much worse, etc.

It's not so hard to figure out what to do against extremely unbalanced players. Figure out what they do too much, and how to make money off that. The solution to these players is usually directly contained within a description of how they're unbalanced.

well it's tricky because their betting range seems pretty balanced. like i said before, they don't understand showdown value so they're constantly betting their weak hands along with their strong hands, and air too. for example, i'll open AK and check back J72. Turn comes a 4 and they lead into me for pot... Or it'll be the same situation and instead i'll be OOP and just c/f flop because my cbets are getting called way too often. These spots happen quite frequently and it's killing my winrate. And in response to what you said also, I just hate being in a spot where i'm calling down double barrels with A high or a 3rd pair type hand against maniacal players. And double barreling with AK/AQ high barely ever works either, they just can't fold hands... The simple solution in theory is to just make a hand and get paid but majority of the time these broadway AK type hands are just flopping air.

I'd be surprised if it is not heavily weighted towards air.

Anyway, just check/fold the flop with AK if you are not comfortable calling with it (or try a c/r instead of a cbet to see how they react to strength). In NLH, I doubt folding the flop will kill your win rate in the long run even if the majority of the time you flop air because the geometric growth of the pot makes incorrect turn/river calls very expensive compared to preflop ones. Also, remember that hands like 2nd Pair have a lot of showdown value against these players, can often call 2 streets and sometimes 3 with correct reads.

good insight, thanks! what are your thoughts on 3betting hands like AK AQ AJ KQ both IP and OOP and postflop situations when you miss?

AK yes, but the other cards I wouldn't. It's just as likely that donks recieve good cards as other players, and have you dominated. You can even 4 bet with AK. If you think that there is no fold equity on a continuation bet, then don't put money in the pot unless you are ready (have good enough cards) to give a good fight.

If you notice a trend, and you are playing against the same people on a regular basis, then all you do is:
1. Figure out what they're doing that makes it hard to play against them.
2. Adjust your strategy specifically against those things so that they stop doing them so often.
3. Once they've adjusted, then go back to playing the way you think is optimal.

Suppose you raise with AK, they call OOP. Flop comes K36 double suited. If you know they are the type to *always* donk lead the turn if you check back flop, then consider checking back and raising turn when a brick hits. Consider checking back flop with nearly 100% of your hands against these guys heads up. And just call turn/river with medium showdown value hands... See how they react to this. If you are able to get folds by checking flop and raising turn with your made hands, then consider checking back the flop and raising turn as a bluff.

The play does not necessarily have to be an optimal counter-strategy. You're worried about the metagame. Your objective is to train them to play the way you want them to play. In this case, you specifically you want to lower their aggression. So use their aggression against them as best you can.

^^^ FUDGEEYEAHHH!!! +1

here's my opinion, you're overthinking it. You need to tighten up against maniacs and calling stations. I have a strong feeling if i look at your histories i will find a lot of situations where you're putting money in with weak hands on turn and river.