While that's true Dr, I think the river is the best street to exploit upon because there is little room for counter exploitation. In some instances, there is even zero room for counter exploitation unless our opponent is visualizing the present future and has pre adjusted, rendering our attempt at exploitation an exercise in futility.

I'm only half joking. For example:

Our opponent bluffs too much and we plan to actively exploit that tendency by calling with more bluffcatchers than we would vs a better opponent as our default strategy. So then this happens:

We get to the river and have decided that we can beat a bluff thus we hold a bluffcatcher. We call and the hand is over. There is no room for counter exploitation here. If our opponent wants to counter exploit us, he needs to value bet more and bluff less THIS TIME. If he bluffs too much this time, then we get away with our plan to exploit. He can't wait till the next time he's in this spot to counter exploit because we may not keep calling once our plan is exposed. This is why I think exploitive strikes are so valuable on the river.

My point was exactly that river exploitation is more important.

That makes sense doctor.

The river is also the easiest street to exploit because there are fewer future decisions for us to consider and no future cards left to consider.

However, a good exploitative player will 'build' his play as the hand progresses. He doesn't just snap out of balanced and start exploiting, he's always exploiting.

This 'building' of a play is called pre-adjusting, which is how we utilise the future-present in regards to our perceived range.

Even pre-flop a good player will make plays to give the opponent an inaccurate understanding of his range so that on certain future cards he will be able to execute a more favourable manoeuvre.

As we progress in a hand the opportunities to mislead the opponent increase, and so by the time we get to the river the opponent will often have put us on a completely different range to that which we would really hold.

Can you give an actual example please?

An actual example as opposed to??? A pretend example?... I will let you off your rude way of asking me for the knowledge which I spent years and years deriving because you are suffering from cognitive dissonance without knowing it. I do have to work for this tho, there is not a simple answer, I hope you appreciate the effort I have to go through. This question is actually real deep and so it would take loads of pages for me to answer accurately AND I have already given you an explanation that most beginners will understand. But, you ask me for more, and so I will go a little further.... To be completely honest I am still quite impressed with you, you keep doing better than most level Two GTO players. If I wasn't impressed I would not be wasting my time. But you seem like a good man.

I'm not going to do this perfectly because your one of the opposition, a heavily GTO player, and they never learn a thing about exploiting anyway, and also, it's Saturday night n I've had a couple beers already!....

Pre-flop we might 3bet with KT, most opponents expect us to do it with lots of Ax. Our perceived range would contain all kinds of Ax hands, but our actual range contains very few. We prefer the K because it is unexpected.

...Our actual range is slipping away from our percieved range...

The flop comes JT2, the villain bets and we call. Our perceived range contains all kinds of AJ, KQ TT, AQ, 89 etc etc...

Our actual range is getting further away from our perceived range. I can't be arsed to explain, or even work out all the hands that are in our actual range by now. This is not important to an exploitative player. We only ever look at the hand that we have, not all the hands we could have.

The turn comes an A, the opponent bets and we raise. Our perceived range contains mostly stuff like KQ and AJ. We might have those in our actual range somewhere but I can't be arsed to work it out. I can't be arsed to work out a better example!!

River comes, we deceive them further, blah blah blah... I explained this to a builder in two seconds today and he got it. Do you GTO guys get it yet?

Seems quite incomplete to me. If you had taken those precious moments you used to complain about me asking you for an example and put that time toward contriving an actual poker situation with stack sizes and positions, then maybe I could get on board with your example. However, as you've presented the situation I see nothing of benefit here. All I see is a preflop 3bet that is likely out of line and unprofitable followed by a turn bluff with a bluffcatcher that has some decent outs to improve to a winner. You didn't include betsizes either so your example is rudamentary at best.

Besides, the bettor probably has JJ or TT or JTs or KQ, none of which are likely to fold. If he has something worse than those hands, then your KT is probably winning already and you're bluffing him off of his bad hands that are drawing slim.

Really... I'm sorry mate, but you have absolutely no idea what your talking about. You just asked me to write a book for a start...

I build every play from the beginning of the hand, so by the river, if I had to work out all the hands that I would play in the same way it would be almost like building an entire GTO strategy, move by move.

And mate... I know I lose when he continues, (unless I see the Q) and that the bluffs fold. The raise is to fold out his AQ mostly. That's the hand that's comes to my drunken mind at least. But other hands do fold too, we dont even know who this guy is. You have no idea what his hand is, what he will call or what he will fold. I was picturing a crappy level two player...

I do realise your only asking for an example because thats what rusty said. I did defend myself against him already..... You guys always tag team people. You need to support each other to reassure yourselves because you subconsciously all know your completely wrong lol! If I was to add the chips to that post it would get insane.

This website could be so, so much better... we need a new site where GTO and Cog D is contained

Raise "worse hands" pre-flop rather than some "better hands" (and fold those "better hands" I guess) and then when we don't hit big post-flop play as if we have one of those "better hands" to try to bluff our opponent because he'll think that we would have raised the "better hands" pre-flop. Hope that an unspecified opponent will fold top pair of aces with a Q or K kicker to a turn raise in a 3bet pot.

Got it.

Some say the glass is half empty and others half full, yodoula on the other hand wants to know what's in the still.

Write a book man!

lol I really shouldn't post anything after a few beers. I could still beat bob drunk but you seem to be a tougher cookie Lego. That was impressive. Obviously was pure piss take but you almost described pre-adjusting properly.

I feel like I just cracked the piece of the puzzle your missing... Pre-adjusting is one of the factors that leads to GTO. Do you get how that works?

Well funnily enough he is somewhat correct about this stuff. Obv the fact that he thinks this is some secret stuff and the key to pokersecrets is kinda hilarious.



Yes, some hands gain EV / realize extra equity than they should, when they are in a strong range. Basically the A-high flop in 3bp example, is better in 4bp where the difference of Ax 4b bluffs vs other hands is clearer. Ax bluffs have more FE than other hands, but we also want to have other hands in that range, as those other type of hands gain EV when we get a board texture that smashes our range.


This stuff is honestly pretty basic stuff, but you are making huge deal out of it and it clearly annoys people.

If you think Lego nailed it then you have to agree with his first sentence:

Ok if that's how you're gonna structure your preflop semibluffing range I can't really argue with that. I'm not a preflop robot by any means but I typically save the preadjusting for situations that fit the following criteria:

I expect my opponents to play poorly.

I have a hand that makes the nut straight often.

I have a pair or I have a hand that can make a flush and makes straights somewhat often.

----

For those reasons I would much rather 3 bet 87s than KTo vs a typical positionally unaware opponent.

Vs good opponents I don't get too out of line preflop.

You guys clearly don't understand much about exploitative theory. You seem to have learnt the basics of pre-adjusting since I've been away writing for these past two years, (I did write that thread on it before I left) but that's clearly not what annoys you.

I get told I'm wrong at every turn. Your not annoyed because I'm right and it's obvious.

It takes about 30 seconds to include positions, stacks and betsizes.

Nope I just like examples.

I'm not annoyed. In fact I like yadoula and I think we share a common wavelength, however much we disagree about poker.

I can't speak of the other players here, but this is true for me. I only exploit near the margins so I don't need to know a bunch of exploitive theory. I'm never going to raise 72o no matter how exploitable my opponent is.

That was pretty sound!

'Never' is a word exploitative players don't really use. Only the sith deal in absolutes.

If a beginner folds 90% of BBs, you'd blatantly wonna be opening that 72 from the SB.

Thanks everyone. I think I learned some stuff here.