I'm often troubled about what to do when I get a medium strength hand in EP at a 9-handed 1/2 or 2/5 NL game live.

It seems as tho these hands are too weak to play in EP because I will be oop for the rest of the hand and I have to fold to a 3-bet. It feels like the correct play is just folding but it seems like they are too strong to just fold preflop... so I usually just limp with them...

Examples of these hands are...

-Small pairs like 22-66
-AJo and AJs
-ATo and ATs
-KQo and KQs
-KJo and KJs
-Medium suited connectors like 78s, 89s, T9s, JTs, QJs

Always raise pairs even UTG. A UTG raise live will usually get at least 3 or 4 callers, this is great for small pp. You don't want to limp because if you do flop a set you'll never get three streets of escalating value vs their top pair's. And if you don't get 3+ callers then you have a chance to win a larger pot unimproved with a c-bet.


I fold AJo/ATo/KQo/KJo, but raise their suited counterparts, sometimes folding KJs if I have loose image or there are maniac behind. I will only raise the medium suited connector's if my image is so tight they have started talking about it or a lot of regs that "know" I am tight are at table. I will also add all suited aces when this happens, unless there are a lot of shorties behind.

open limp small pairs. change tables to where it's not so nitty/3b happy and you can profitably raise AJs and KQs and all the other suited ones

3betting a EP open almost never happens at 1/2 or 2/5, this should not be a significant concern. Limping and letting them set the raise size is far more significant a concern.

3betting definitely happens at 2/5 where I play. The EP dilemma, outlined by OP, is quite real. These middle-range hands---small p/p and non-premium broadways---are generally insta-mucks against 3bets, unless 3bettor is doing so light, in which case you can 4bet your better broadways for value.

In the end, I believe this is table-dynamic and hero-image issue. If you've not been opening from EP, then AJ/KQ or 22-66, can be raised effectively, so long as you're prepared to c-bet and barrel if the board texture allows.

I'm constantly analysing these EP raising-range issues, but I don't think there is a simple answer. It comes down to an awareness of your image and villains' preflop calling/raising and continuation ranges. If you don't have a "read" on these image and range issues when at the table, then you can either take a risk-averse line for a bit until you do (and nit up), or test the water, in which case you may need to risk 15BB, with a raise and c-bet.

Interested to know why you haven't included suited As in your problem EP range.

Limp. You are hoping to hit a set, and you need several callers. I would only raise with these if I was absolutely sure I'd get 5-6 callers, and even then it's borderline.

I raise with both, especially AJs. AJo is more debatable -- it's probably even, but I like to raise a lot to disguise other raising hands.

Ditto for ATo and ATs, and KQo and KQs.

These suited hands (ATs and KQs) are a clear raise in my book. AJo, ATo and KQo are more debatable, but personally I raise all three -- again, the value of a raise on a single hand is probably debatable, but it disguises other raising hands in the long run. (This assumes you're playing with people who will play with you again, and who will take note of such things -- not always the case at low limits, but sometimes it is.)

Unless I'm sure I'll get 5-6 callers, I limp with T9s, JTs, and QJs, while folding 78s and 89s. If you are sure you'll get 5-6 callers, raise with the first three while limping with the second two.

It happens all the time where I play (Oaks). Hell, it gets capped just as often.

I don't feel the need to c-bet when missing just because I raised from EP, especially if its multiway with a small pp or even short handed with a wet board texture. So I am often only risking 3-4bb with a chance at a big payoff. Suited aces are not really a problem since I can either semi-bluff a nut or even backdoor nut draw, otherwise I just check/fold unless an ace flops, which sometimes I will check/call. I do agree though that middle pp and suited broadways are mucks vs 3bets, but where I play in Detroit no one ever 3bets an EP open (or at least my EP opens) without like AA/KK.

Do you mean that you already have a game plan for playing those hands from LP, or from the blinds, and you are bedating about what to do from EP, or you dont have a game plan at all for these hands?

If you are risking 3-4bb, then that's around 40bb per set hit. But, then you have to consider: (1) when you don't get full value for you set because no villains hit TPTK or overpair; and (2) when you lose to higher set, straight or flush.

So maybe you need to bank on winning closer to 60bb, at a guess? (There would be a way of calculating this figure more precisely, anyone?)

My point is that too often players think: pocket-pair/10:1/implied value/villain's stack. How often do we get ALL of villain's stack? Moreover, how often do we lose OUR stacks due to RIO? These two questions need to be factored in as well.

By the way here's a link from a COTW that outlines some of these issues <http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-playing-small-pocket-pairs-675871/>.

like anything else in poker, the correct answer is "depends". i'll give u 2 extreme scenarios to explain myself:

1. if it's a 2/5 10-handed game that's playing kinda deep with a couple of tough players who are 3-betting often and who'll apply pressure postflop, then you're probably better off folding ATo, KJ, or even 22 when UTG. your life will be miserable every time u don't flop a set, every time u miss with your 2 big cards, and even if u hit top pair with it they can make your life miserable.

2. if it's a 1/2 8-handed game on a friday night with the average weekend gambler drinking beer and having a good time. if they're calling raises from any position with hands like K9o, A5o, Q8s, etc, but there's no 3betting unless someone has AA or KK. if they're willing to go broke often w/ just top pair. then your best bet is to raise that very same ATo, KJ, 22 for value from any position.

i'll also advice 2 things:

1st - if you're unsure about what to do with speculative hands preflop from EP, then you should be folding them regardless of the scenario. if u play enough and study the game enough, you'll learn with experience when to open up your range and you'll feel comfortable with it.

2nd - even though there are rare occasions where open-limping is fine, it's much better to raise if you're opening the pot. you don't wanna play too many pots in a live longhanded game, but in the pots that u do play, u wanna apply pressure. take the betting lead. remember that when u call u only give yourself one chance to win the hand: making the best hand. however, when u bet or raise, u can win the pot by making the best hand, or by making them fold. if you're concerned about getting too many callers, then find out what amount will only get u 1 or 2 callers, so that u could still take it down with a c-bet even if u miss the flop. (don't forget they'll miss the flop over 60% of the time)

and even if this seems rude to other posters: OP, try not to follow advice from someone who suggests open-limping as a solution to your leaks.

You can usually get away with some limps in small stakes live, especially if 4-5 people often over limp. That's what I'd do with the small pairs, and small SC's if the game is really soft. 22-44 utg 10 handed is closer to a fold than a raise, though, in any game.

I'd muck aj, kq from utg and also qjs, 44, Axs if the game is tough (open raising everything higher). If the game is soft, you can limp with those hands. I normally hate limping, but it's an exploitable facet to lls games. If you feel your limps are getting punished, either don't do it, or throw in ak and jj or qq as limp reraises.

Your requirements should tighten up every seat closer to UTG, however. "early position" hand requirements are too vague. UTG +1 should be tiny bit looser than utg.

EDIT TO MY POSTS: I just noticed the "NL" in the OP. I had thought this was a limit thread based on the "low limit" title. Please disregard my posts.