Quote:
Originally Posted by ticoarm
1.how to use game theory in poker, and which book, or what software can help me to find GTO play at different situation.
2.when other opponent deviate GTO, then how to change my play to exploit them? There are some book to teach this?
Unfortunately, I think I don't find a obvious answer, the obvious means..for example, just like running game, I know if I run faster than others, then I will win, so my aim is run faster, I will try to improve this, it is obvious. In poker, I don't find this, I don't find which poker skill I should improve, and which skill I can use to win others.
Or I can say, I find a answer, but it is too general, my answer is I will use GTO to play when I don't find other opponents' leak, and if I find that a opponent deviate GTO, then I will use exploit play to gain value. That's my answer, but it is useless for me now even though I knew this. Because I don't know how to operate it, there are some process that I don't know how to handle. I don't know what's the GTO situation in poker, how to expoilt opponent's leak using game theory.(In mathematic of poker, the AKQ toy game, it explain well about value bet and bluff raito, but I need more knowledge about this.)so here is my question: how to use game theory in poker, and which book, or what software can help me to find GTO play at different situation.
First, forget about learning GTO because it's never been solved except for extreme conditions. Furthermore, if you simply try to approximate GTO, it's will only create more problems for you than solve.
By definition (or logic), any strategy that is not GTO must be exploitable in some way. Therefore any modification to fix exploitable areas in your strategy, but does not achieve GTO will still be exploitable only in different, usually less obvious ways which your opponents are likely to discover before you do.
It seems like there should be an expression that describes this but since I can't recall any I'll just describe attempting to achieve GTO is like: "Not having enough doe to cover the pizza platter." For every hole you patch, you only create more holes elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ticoarm
GTO is a high skill
Just the opposite, it's a strategy that requires no skill at all. There would never be any need to adapt or outplay or even observe your opponent. To understand this think of any casino table game that involves using a dealer to play against you. They all must use some GTO strategy that no other strategy can defeat regardless of what's known about the dealers strategy which is quite plain to see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ticoarm
But my question is if EO means the deviate from GTO, then if I don't know GTO, how could I know that how much opponent deviate from GTO?That means I can't study EO without GTO, right? But If I can study EO directly, tell me how to study it please.
In fact, since no GTO strategy exists, all winning poker strategies are therefore some form of Exploitative strategy but how Optimal would be based on skill.
But if every strategy is also exploitable as well how can players play a winning game in the long run. How this can be true is with a Ro-Sham-Bo effect where A>B>C>A. This is actually generally the case with the three most common winning styles of:
LAG>TAG>Small Ball>LAG
However the complexities of the game will not make this obvious. Also the advantages can also change as the format of the game changes, e.g. tournament, cash game, short handed play, deep stack play, etc.
If this were the case, how could poker even be worth playing? Could any player ever remain winning in the long run if eventually a strategy can be used to defeat you?
You can actually answer this by answering your own original question which is a great approach to learning poker by the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ticoarm
First of all, there is the most basic, and the most important question to me: why I can win others in poker? I always ask this question to myself, maybe someone will have some different answers, but as a beginner, I am thinking that what way I should follow, what poker skill I should learn, let this skill become the most crucial factor to win others.
Warning TLDR from here.
You can answer this by understanding that we are all flawed to some degree and poker is a game that measures the relative flaws in our games. As you find mistakes made by opponents, you can adapt an exploitative style that would take advantage of those mistakes.
When starting out as players, those who start out winning first will probably recognize that we are not only flawed, we tend to follow patterns that have been encoded within our subconscious and we call these patterns human nature.
We use human nature as a kind of default to follow when we don't have a clear choice. I have a new theory that the new field of Epigenetics will eventually explain the origin of human nature.
My own simplified understanding is it's a newly discovered mechanism where strong experiences such as famine can cause some chemical changes that can actually change DNA.
I think it follows that by changing DNA in a deterministic manor as opposed to unpredictable or random method. If natural selection were to then preserve the positive changes than it's as if experiences were passed on genetically between generations. I digress.
Since poker is a game of incomplete information, new players will nearly always default to one of these patterns of human nature. Poker players become familiar with human nature at those points where it deviates the most from sound poker strategy. Most typically its a matter of exploiting calling stations but also maniacs, weak passive, name your fish here.
Think about it for a second. Essentially any style that has no proper stopping points is the essence of any fishy play. So human nature may get us started in a generally correct direction but it can't quantify.
So at the bottom of the food chain, poker players see predictable patterns from new players following human nature to exploit. This is level 1 thinking.
All higher levels can be found by asking the same fundamental question. How do I beat other players in my game. It turns out that this is usually by learning a style that best exploits the most successful style used at the level below.
If new players are a universal poker food, at higher levels, where fresh fish may be more scarce, especially if during a poker contraction, we need to look further up the food chain. The next weakest link in the food chain that doesn't include rich players starting out higher, are players taking their first shots at moving up.
Having been there/done that, we understand the thinking at that level and modify our game to exploit that thinking which is basically what leveling is all about.
There are more fascinating mechanisms that also go on it seems like new concepts are still evolving.
It all looks like evolution but if you've been through the last poker cycle, you might recognize it not as evolution but mostly as players adapting to the changing poker economy and once you see it's an economic
cycle you may have answers to future games as well as present games.
For instance, if you think something like range merging first came out when AE Jones first coined the term in 2005 with this post:
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...7797&fpart=all
He presents an early stage foggy notion of range merging which is to be expected when exploring a new concept. However it also demonstrates how new the ideas were to the top players of the day, who started in the post boom era. From this post on we chiefly learned about thin value betting but also some lesser aspects of defensive and blocking betting thrown in. Clearly he deserves full credit for it's
rediscovery.
You should know that my location hasn't changed since I first joined 2+2 in 2004.