Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Theory General poker theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-27-2017, 05:46 AM   #76
Yadoula8
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Posts: 655
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

He was probably an honest guy. You won't find many clever people that arnt.
Yadoula8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2017, 09:32 AM   #77
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Room 112 where the players dwell.
Posts: 8,037
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Hey Yadoula, what do you think happens to the levels when we face a superior opponent?
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 01:57 AM   #78
Yadoula8
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Posts: 655
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Well, nothing ever happens to the Levels, they never change. They are like an extension to the rules of a game. Once you've learnt them you will know how to play Poker.

I'm guessing what you mean is, "What would we do, using the Levels, when facing a superior opponent?" And that question isn't as straight forward as it may seem.

Poker is a sport to me. A sport that uses only the mind. So this question is like asking what you'd do against a better footballer. If Messi we're running at you what would you do? There are an infinite amount of answers. There are many things we might do to contend with the better player, but there is one thing that we will do more often than not...

"What do we do against a better player?" ... Lose.

So let's just cut to the chase... The reason we might use GTO is so that better players can't beat us. GTO is an unbeatable strategy. You probably think that sounds amazing. Incredible. Superb! Well, I completely agree. There is only one problem...

... The Levels don't only work on Poker, they can be used for ANY strategic decision. They make up the natural thought process used by humans to strategise! Damn it, I think all beings use these same Levels for every decision they've ever made!! We humans are able to use all the Levels. We use them all day long. The Levels are already in our heads. And there lies the problem. If you have placed trust in a different strategic theory before consciously understanding how the Levels works in relation to your game, you will have two conflicting reasons behind every play that you make and so will experience cognitive dissonance. Anytime you see or hear about anything to do with unrecognised theory relating to the Levels, your subconscious mind will protect your trusted knowledge by denying your conscious access to your own natural strategic process. You will basically go nuts.

So I don't really oppose GTO... GTO is Level Infinity... I've just realised that the Levels need to be learnt in the correct order. If they are not, then bad things happen.
Yadoula8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 06:03 PM   #79
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Room 112 where the players dwell.
Posts: 8,037
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Well if you wanna make sports analogies then you're ok in my book. If I was to face off vs the great basketballer Michael Jordan without a handicap, then I would be screwed on both sides of the coin: skills and conditioning. Both are a separate functioning part of a good athelete that comprise the optimal strategy. Perhaps I would need to get lucky a few times with the long ball vs MJ if he's giving me the shot. If he's not, then I'm going to be forced to drive and face the master's conditioning which will benefit him immediately, and especially at the end of the game when I'm tired. There will be no tricking the master though as his multiple defensive player of the year awards reveal. If we're to beat him, it will be with speed and drawing fouls. Also, getting dunked on is going to be the focal point of the match. Since I can't contend above the rim, I shouldn't contest; I should conserve my energy levels. All I can do on defense is try to stay between the rim and the master.

What does that have to do with poker? Does conditioning even have a play? How many times has the average poker player said, "I don't need to go to bed yet. I can play a little longer."? I think most, or all of us have done that. Like they say, "nothing good ever happens after 1am with a beer in your hand." we could also say, "winrates decline after we get tired."

I think the analogy ends there.

----

In poker, since physical conditioning isn't as important at the beginning of the match, skill is at a premium. There probably infinite strategies within a finite space of skill levels and those skill levels will determine who is coming out as the more profitable poker player in the long run. The winner isn't necessarily going to be the one that makes the highest number of profitable decisions. The winner will be the one that has the highest average return on investment. Since we all make mistakes, this means that a real winrate is going to have loss leaders, even on a very long timeline, simply because we're human.

This is why I disagree with many that would suggest that you should't make ev statements without math to back it up. I think there are many ways to make true ev statements without math. I made this rudimentary graph the other day when I was thinking about human winrates:

Quote:
I like graphs but I don't know how to post one so I'll describe what I'm thinking: the horizontal axis would be preflop tight---------loose preflop play; the vertical axis would be the winrates. Assuming good postflop play, I think the resulting curve, or upside down V, would top out somewhere around 24-28% vpip for a full game. The left and right extremes would feature low winrates, while the center would feature the highest winrates.

So it's not as if you reach a certain perfect vpip% and the winrate plummets if you go any higher. Instead it's a slow drop in winrate as you move away from the center.

A little loose or a little tight isn't that bad, but very loose or very tight can be very bad to the point that winrates go negative.

Maybe someone smart will post a visual image of what I'm thinking.

Here's my try:

......................................^
.................................... /..\
..................................../.....\
.................................. /........\
................................../..........\
.=====================================0ev
............................... /...............\
.............................../.................\
............................../....................\
............................./......................\
0% vpip----------------------|--------------------------------------100% vpip
..................................26%imo

So realistically we can play anywhere in the top section of the upside down V and have a profitable strategy.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 07:14 PM   #80
Yadoula8
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Posts: 655
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

We do definitely condition ourselves. Pokers a mind game and so it's our mental attributes that we use. The braver we are the better we are. Being a coward is a weakness, which can be exploited. Excitable players are weak. Calm players good. Mental arithmetic is a big one too. We develop all these attributes naturally as we play.

I don't know about winrate graphs like that - If we're against weaker players we probably want to play more hands and so the graph would change. They are alright for a general idea, but they seem to secretly promote GTO by encouraging everyone to play with a specific preset range... These graphs have got bloody CogD written all over them! Cognitive dissonance is everywhere. It exploits our mental attributes to help it hide the Levels from us. Basically, it slyly turns your own mind against you. And the mind of a poker player is usually a formidable thing.
Yadoula8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 07:27 PM   #81
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Room 112 where the players dwell.
Posts: 8,037
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Yup that's precisely why it's rudimentary, because it assumes that the only variable is vpip.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2017, 02:51 PM   #82
Yadoula8
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Posts: 655
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Yeah that too, and also they are only based on a certain field of opponents
Yadoula8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2017, 09:57 AM   #83
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Room 112 where the players dwell.
Posts: 8,037
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Quote:
they seem to secretly promote GTO by encouraging everyone to play with a specific preset range... These graphs have got bloody CogD written all over them!
I do think it's important to have default preflop ranges to use vs unknowns, but it's not an attempt to secretly promote gto. In fact, all of my default opening ranges are not gto ranges and I'm fine with that.

For example: I put one of my limit holdem opening ranges up for inspection a while ago in this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...22/?highlight=

Quote:
Please explain how you would exploit the poster above you. I'll start, naturally.

I raise utg 6 handed with a range like this vs unknowns: 44+, A9o+, A4s+, KJo+, K8s+, QJo, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s.

You're in the HJ. Exploit me!!
This range is slightly wide on purpose because most live unknown players don't 3 bet enough preflop, which is a preadjustment to expected game conditions. If the game was online 6 max, I'd be a bit tighter on the margins specifically because I expect more 3 betting preflop.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2017, 10:21 AM   #84
Yadoula8
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Posts: 655
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Oh yeah, by all means design your strategy around different fields of players. It's just the one 'ideal' vpip that I have issues with
Yadoula8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2017, 11:14 AM   #85
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Room 112 where the players dwell.
Posts: 8,037
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yadoula8 View Post
Oh yeah, by all means design your strategy around different fields of players. It's just the one 'ideal' vpip that I have issues with
I have a vivid imagination to say the least. The graph wasn't meant to be perfect, but I do think that there is a perfect opening range for every situation with reads that is the most profitable opening range; this isn't the same as a gto range.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2017, 05:15 AM   #86
TakenItEasy
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Playing for thin value.
Posts: 1,767
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

lol.

It's been about three years since I last posted here regularly and I see this oldy coincidently bumped out of the cobwebs.
TakenItEasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2017, 08:30 AM   #87
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
leavesofliberty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: atlas shreeked
Posts: 4,771
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

I read the first line with skepticism (playing 200 limits, sure), and continue to read for pages on "leveling". Why is "leveling" better than GTO approaches, random walks, etc.?

Spoiler:
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2017, 08:35 AM   #88
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
leavesofliberty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: atlas shreeked
Posts: 4,771
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinGChapman View Post
This is exactly what i was thinking as I was reading this thread!! perfect.
Basically, this. Undoubtedly there is something to be said for being one step ahead of your opponents, deceiving them as to your range, and knowing how to pinpoint, and adjust their range.

I don't need to be on level 1000000. I just need to be on level N+1, and level N+1 merely boils down to ranges and EV, so when you think about it, levelling is nothing special or different than boiling things down to ranges, pinpoint ranges, adjusting to ranges, and deceiving your opponent as towards your range.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2017, 10:56 AM   #89
Yadoula8
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Posts: 655
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

You missed Level Four and five... It is also about knowing that they are capable of deceiving you, and knowing that they are capable of seeing that you are deceiving them.

Also, you cant really be on N+1 because as soon as we understand the rules to the game we are all subconsciously capable of playing at all Levels. Your only talking about levelling somebody in an individual situation, but there are trillions of situations in Poker. I'm talking about being consciously aware of all the Levels for all decisions. Which many people are not.

Once you are consciously aware of Level Four you are capable of understanding all of the Levels, and so Level 1million is even more silly than it sounds. Level Five is the last with any relevance and then it goes to Level Infinity - Once we're consciously aware that the opponent understands that we're capable of disguising all our plays, (Level Five) there is no longer an advantage to be gained from deceiving him. And so we move to Level Infinity, GTO.

I don't think GTO players have got it wrong, I just think that they've got it backwards. They are considering poker in the wrong way. They are thinking about all the different factors in the wrong order. These Levels simply give us the way in which we naturally think through our Poker decisions, and all strategies can be concocted using them.
Yadoula8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 05:29 PM   #90
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,001
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Ugh this thread again. I actually like the new description of levels more than the old ones I guess.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
just_grindin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2017, 03:38 PM   #91
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
leavesofliberty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: atlas shreeked
Posts: 4,771
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

We're literally going in circles.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2017, 10:57 PM   #92
6471849653
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: EU
Posts: 1,587
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

In theory, my level 4 player would be a superstar.

One thinks more than one's own hand; most online grinders don't, maybe counting out their own range (these days). There is basically no difference here to a beginner playing or representing his hand. One thinks only one's own hand here.

Then a known level 2 (I name it) play is to play your opponent's hand (his range (on the board) these days). This includes when you are betting and when he is betting. All you do is that you think about your opponent's hand/range here. This is a pretty high level of thinking.

According to that, level 3 would then think what your opponent thinks about your hand (thinking coming back to you). This can and will get annoying when you read your opponent's hand/range with level 2 thinking and he busts it. Level 3 player is already a "Pro."

Today, the level after that might be called "GTO," that was known as "I don't know" level before.
6471849653 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 06:24 AM   #93
Yadoula8
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Royal Leamington Spa
Posts: 655
Re: How rare is it to be a level 4+ player?

Well with GTO you don't need to think about the opponent as such, u can just memorise plays, or presume ur opponent is also playing GTO.

Yeah Level three players can make a killing. That's where the money starts rolling in. To play at Level three you need to consider the range that the opponent puts you on, and pre-empt the changes to this range after you make your manoeuvre. It's not as hard to do as it may sound.
Yadoula8 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Š 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online