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Old 10-13-2011, 09:19 AM   #16
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

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but I've been talking with a fellow player who is full-time and while having the hourly rate comparison discussion (I'm part-time), I asked him what his annual salary from poker was in 2009, 2010, and also 2011YTD.

He looked at me blankly and said that he doesn't measure it that way.
This is silly. It means he doesn't want to answer because for whatever reason he thinks the answer is embarrassing. He likely doesn't win the amount hourly he tells you, or doesn't put in the number of hours he tells you. It wouldn't be hard for someone playing for a living in a math based game to take X# of hours @ Y$/hr and figure out a yearly.

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I've never heard anyone share yearly numbers for some reason, only hourly. Does no one stick around grinding for more than 12 months?
Bingo. Very, very few people are playing 1/2 or 2/5 NL for a long period of time as a sole means of supporting themselves. All the people here who start threads like, "should I turn pro" etc don't end up lasting.

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My hourly is between $25 and $30 (don't want to disclose the exact amount) for $1/2nl
Someone on 2p2 who makes $25-$30 hourly playing 1/2 NL live. Shocking. I clearly wouldn't have guessed this would be mentioned when I saw the thread title.

Also, you "don't want to disclose the exact amount"? Why not? You've given us a $5 range; people aren't going to ignore the thread if it's $26.09 but love you to death if it's $28.48.

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So playing for 42 weeks would be $52.5K and 44 weeks would be $55K pre-tax. Does this sound about right for a $1/2nl grinder?
The chances that someone makes $55,000 playing 1/2 NL live are about equivalent to the chances that the Pirates and the Royals face off in next year's World Series. Not mathematically impossible, but it isn't happening.

Disregarding the winrate portion of the equation, you'd have a much harder time than you think playing that many hours 44 weeks a year.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:13 AM   #17
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

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Originally Posted by LoosenUp View Post
1/2 or any silly capped buyin NL games didn't exist in 2004, and I wish they didn't exist today too.
that's very hard to believe, but you might be right.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:21 AM   #18
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

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Originally Posted by Jeff_B View Post
Lol thank god everyone said this, i was definitely concerned about my hourly at 1/2 being much less..

besides wouldnt hourly be the most important rate if its accurate?
I could make $1000 an hour but be lazy and work an hour a week for $52k a year or make $5 an hour and work 20 hours a day and still clear 36.5k....
nah you shouldn't be worried bout your wr, making 25-35k/year playing 1-2$ is respectable for any solid player.. who can actually do this

and imo i think hourly rate+volume shows the most consistency when doing something like live for a while.

making 18$/h playing 1-2 over 1000 hours shows alot more bout a player then some1 who wins 75$/h at 1-2 over 30 hours.
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:50 PM   #19
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

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Originally Posted by CardSharpCook View Post
Right, the moneymaker World Series in '03 (I think) is the start of widespread NL games. So, you got in right after the boom. Ask an "old-timer" what it was like in 2000, don't assume it was always as it was when you started.
I'm sure it was very different in 2000. But we arent talking about 2000, we are talking about 2004. And I dont think it is that much of a stretch to assume that a game that was ubiquitous in 2005 at least existed in 2004. In fact, I remember talking with friends in my poker home game about their trips to AC during this year, and they always mentioned playing 1/2.
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Old 10-13-2011, 03:59 PM   #20
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

cash only player living in vegas who goes to CA one week per month. over last 12 years my average $ 121,296 per year. Not great, but good enough for my wife and kids lifestyle.

Not degan, put in solid 50 - 60 hour "work weeks". Haven't team/partner played in about 10 years, so all on my own.
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:37 PM   #21
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Another thing that should be mentioned, it is really hard to put as many hours in as you expect to.

Let's say I go in and get my clock cleaned early in the session. If it's really bad I go home, which is def better for me then staying there. So instead of getting 8 or how many hours I wanted to get in for the day, I might only get in 2 or 3. This happens often enough where it would be unrealistic to make these hours up. I mean it's possible but most people won't.

People also leave early when they won a ton, won a bunch and then lost most of it back, etc. There are good and bad reasons for doing this but more importantly to the question OP asked, most people fall into this category. Only the sickest or the best don't.
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:33 PM   #22
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

Annual income has a big range depending on how much the player wants to make, because he can play however many/few hours he wants. With real jobs you tend to work a predetermined number of hours a year, so the question is relevant for real jobs but not so much for poker.

For instance one poker pro might average 25 hours a week this year. Does that mean whatever he makes this year is his set-in-stone annual income? No, so I think his hourly rate is a much more relevant gauge of his success. He can always choose to play 40 hours a week or more if his need for money increases. If another player has to play 80 hours a week to pay his bills then he has a low hourly rate and isn't all that successful.

If you wanna define a year as fifty 40-hour weeks, then just multiply the hourly rate by 2000.
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:05 PM   #23
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

Is 500 hours a good measuring stick? I play 2/5 live with a pretty solid win rate. $42.43 an hour. I had 43 winning sessions and six losers. My losing sessions always pretty big though because i never had a stop loss limit. And of the 43 winners some were more like 3 in ones. Straight 38 hour benders.
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:17 PM   #24
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

Seems really stupid to spend the money traveling to Vegas, spending the money to live there, just to grind 1/2 full time for two months. You're not going to make $25-$30/hr long term playing 1/2 and it isn't a real $25-$30 anyway because of expenses and time invested. Move up to where they respect your raises.

Agree with 2OutsNoProb.
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:13 PM   #25
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

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Originally Posted by CBorders View Post
Move up to where they respect your raises.
Really, please tell us you were kidding?
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:00 AM   #26
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

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Originally Posted by Something Clever View Post
Is 500 hours a good measuring stick? I play 2/5 live with a pretty solid win rate. $42.43 an hour. I had 43 winning sessions and six losers. My losing sessions always pretty big though because i never had a stop loss limit. And of the 43 winners some were more like 3 in ones. Straight 38 hour benders.
I play limit, so I may be wrong, but it seems like your win to lose percentage is too high which could mean a couple of things.

First off you could be running hot or secondly, it could mean you are booking wins. You see this a lot where someone has a bunch of small wins or counts sessions won vs lost in general (I understand you might just be looking at a spreadsheet).


I would think $42 an hour is a very good win rate for that game, but with how few sessions you have lost in, should it be higher?...wait I just realized you average 10 hour sessions, so I'm not sure whats going on.

Maybe you don't book wins, you just play until unstuck a lot?

Or $42 is just a huge winrate for that game? This got me to thinking, one of my best friends is a huge winner 10/20 to 25/50NL (sometimes higher). Back when I met him, I think it was late 2005, he was grinding 2/5NL in Vegas (lower rake than elsewhere) and I remember him telling me he was winning $35 an hour (trying to get me to convert, ya shoulda did that). No doubt he has gotten a lot better, but also the games were easier. With his discipline and focus and knowing how good he is, I doubt many people can do better long term in a casino.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:51 AM   #27
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

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Originally Posted by cpitt398 View Post
I play limit, so I may be wrong, but it seems like your win to lose percentage is too high which could mean a couple of things.

First off you could be running hot or secondly, it could mean you are booking wins. You see this a lot where someone has a bunch of small wins or counts sessions won vs lost in general (I understand you might just be looking at a spreadsheet).


I would think $42 an hour is a very good win rate for that game, but with how few sessions you have lost in, should it be higher?...wait I just realized you average 10 hour sessions, so I'm not sure whats going on.

Maybe you don't book wins, you just play until unstuck a lot?

Or $42 is just a huge winrate for that game? This got me to thinking, one of my best friends is a huge winner 10/20 to 25/50NL (sometimes higher). Back when I met him, I think it was late 2005, he was grinding 2/5NL in Vegas (lower rake than elsewhere) and I remember him telling me he was winning $35 an hour (trying to get me to convert, ya shoulda did that). No doubt he has gotten a lot better, but also the games were easier. With his discipline and focus and knowing how good he is, I doubt many people can do better long term in a casino.
You hit the nail on the head about me playing until I was unstuck. I feel like my decision making was pretty solid in every aspect of my game other than setting a time limit for myself. I played four days a week for three months to amass those numbers. I like to play long sessions sometimes to a fault. Definitely have had days where I walked away wishing I wouldve booked a decent win in six hours, instead played for twenty to make the same money. I played these stakes on a 5k roll. Eventually spent some time on vacation tried to press's a little when I got back to make money quick. Was stuck 1300 and blew the rest in the pits. Really great br management. Lol. I have a sick hand story to tell also. It sure where I should post it though.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:54 AM   #28
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

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Really, please tell us you were kidding?
Sort of. He should be moving up in stakes as his skills and bankroll allow instead of wasting time at 1/2.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:40 PM   #29
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Re: Forget Hourly Rate, What's Annual Income?

Dating back to last October I have made 33k. About half from tournaments and the other half cash games

My home game is 2/5. I go to Biloxi at least once a month to do a couple tournaments and play 5/10
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