Hello all,

I'm a returning player to the game taking the time to re-approach learning the game. I used to play 50nl and live 1-2/2-5.


Here's my question, After recalling opening range and equities in different spots and in regards to my own hand I go to the next level of assigning villain a range.

I'm working currently on being comfortable counting combos within that assigned range and grouping them (value hands, showdown value hands, air) -however I still lack the foundation/knowledge of how do I calculate my equity vs this range.

How do I take it to the next level calculating what is my equity vs a given range in a given spot ? I assume there's heaps of math behind it, I'm not scared, point me in the right direction homies !

Combo counts only really matter on the river, where you're either going to have a clear call with a stronger bluffcatcher, or a reluctant fold with a weak bluffcatcher. Either way, I don't see much ev to be gained by honing this combo counting prowess.

There's so much more ev to be gained in studying betting and raising ranges as well as flop and turn check calling ranges and check back ranges. This is where the money is, not in bluffcatching.

I assumed counting combos on every street is essential when assigning ranges.

The quoted part does resonate very much with me, I find my hand/range reading skills good but not the part where I need to actually turn the assigned range into an ev calc - this is where I need help and would like to have a direction pointed as to where to start studying this. Thanks !

If you wanted to really get into combos, you should look into the difference in combos in your opponent's range from street to street. Note that the flop itself changes the preflop combo number. Then any action changes the combo number again. This effect is repeated for the turn and river. Then the final round of betting is just an (0,1) game.

You'll find that some boards interact with many more combos in your opponent's range than others. It is within this spectrum of flop/turn/river textures that we need to draw a line in the sand:

On one side, we have static boards. Think of the flop AAA, and the turn card A. there are no draws except the draw to a King river that would help 54o and the like chop the pot. This is as close as real poker on the turn comes to being a static game. Most other, more normal situations we face at the table will allow some type of draw with the flop and turn dealt.

This means that the quality of draws present will have an effect on the profitability of our hands throughout our range.

Here's a thread about it:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...00/?highlight=

I think ev calculations are good for identifying dominated strategies, but they rely on assumptions that can't possibly be 100% correct according to the rules of the Nash Equilibrium. It's ok though because we have concept and spatial reasoning abilities to help us play poker without a calculator.

Thank you for the informative reply.

I do see people here write that they're able to calculate equity vs a given range in a given spot during a hand and that is something I wish to learn , for example - how does pokerstove calculate the equities in diff scenarios?

This seems to explain it pretty clearly mate...

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strateg...-equity-equity

Forget about EV If I were you, you never need a number for your profit

That article contains the following:

"Equity Shortcut: The easiest way to get your equity is to remember this simple rule:

On the flop, multiply your outs by four.

On the turn, multiply your outs by two."

The bolded part is a serious error if villain's bet is not all-in. In such a case, you should also multiply by 2 to estimate equity so as to compare with pot odds taking into consideration such factors as a likely turn bet and implied odds.

Lol I'm sorry I just picked the first one on google n scanned it

Yadoula I'm glad you answered as I really enjoyed reading your thread regarding levels.

In that thread you wrote about being able to visualize villain's ranges and your EV (right?) vs those ranges. That's what I'm interested in. I can calculate pot equity for my hand - I want to take it to the next level and calculate it VS villains range

im no sure to understand you because no speak english. and i very noob
but i think cant calculate equity range vs range for calculate movement ev, we need calculate equity of one hand vs one range, no equity range vs range. because all hands of your range are different equity vs her range.

if we want calculate SD equity i think we need look equity hand vs range
so for calculate a bet ev :
% villain call X( %equity hand vs villain range X final pot ) - cost = bet EV

I say im no sure this, because im noob and no sure if you question that XD.
please if i dont be in true help me. and sorry for my english

i forgot fold equity in account XD
EV = SE + FE - COST
SE = % VILLAIN CALL x (%EQUITY VS VILLAIN RANGE x FINAL POT)
FE = % VILLAIN FOLD x POT (pot we win when he fold)

sorry if i detract post, in all my post i need say sorry XDDD its because im use traductor for read this forum and im never sure of nothing im riding.

Sound mate!!

So, you can tell how often your hand will improve, and your wondering how to do the rest of the math...

If you want to do an EV calculation I think this is the best way to do it.

- Your next step is to consider a hand in the villains range and work out how often your hand will be stronger than that hand come showdown. This is your winchance.
- You then assign this much of the final pot to you. So, if the pot will be 100, and you will win a third of the time, 33 of it has your name on it.
- You then compare this to the price of the play to see whether you will be up or down against that hand. If they bet 30 and have no chips left we are making 3 with a call against that hand.
-We then need to periodically go through all the other hands in his range and assign them a profit figure in the same way.
-We are looking to get our average profit over all the hands in the range and so we need to add these figures together and then divide them by their own number, but we also need to take into consideration the fact that some hands appear in their range more regularly than others, eg, pocket pairs only appear once for every three/four times that unpaired hands appear.

Any full EV sum is real complicated and I never ever do them at the tables. This post is really hard for me to write! I hate maths. I do everything I can to get around it...

We never actually need to consider how many chips our hand will actually make - If we want to know whether or not we need to fold we only need to be sure that the hand will make something. And if we are deciding between profitable options we need to compare our plays to see which is better -

So if we may need to fold we have to weigh up our total winchance against the price of the play ensuring that we have atleast the price to continue. We have to weigh up all the winning hands against losing hands and make sure there are enough winners to cover the price.

If we are comparing profitable options all we need to do is pinpoint the part of the villains range which pays us more or less depending on our play. If the play makes us the same from that hand in the villains range regardless of our manouvre, we can simply forget about that hand.

It's actually lucky you asked me for this because I need to check over my maths, ive changed things around a little with my EV calculation but I think the one I've put up here is the easiest way of calculating it... (If I have done something wrong do let me know guys)

I recommend equilab because it's free and effective.

Here's a great thread about getting the most out of an equity calculator:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/35...-tl-dr-449010/

Yadoula do you mind showing this process with an example ? Even a simple one?

I can visualize Villain's range, and I'm counting combos ( I would go there's X combos im ahead of 4:1 and Y Im behind 2:1 for example) but I want to be able to transalte it to EV so I can compare to my pot equity and the cost of diff plays. Hope it makes sense.

The first thing to realize is that there are exactly zero plays in a correct poker strategy that have a "cost." Literally every play you make should not only have a positive expectation, but should even have the most profitable positive expectation. If you accept that folding is free and is thus 0ev, assuming that you got to that particular spot by making the most +ev play available, then you will do nothing but make money with each check, call, bet, or raise. All of these actions are profitable relative to folding when done with the correct hands in the correct situations.

Yessss I agree ! Now when I set fold ev to 0 I want to be able to compare diff plays to it mathematically.

We have QQ
Villains range - AA, KK, JJ and AK
He has gone all in, we have to call 75 to win 200

Against AA - We win about 20% of the time so 40 is ours, cost of the play is 75, so we lose 35
Against KK - We win about 20% of the time, so we lose 35
Against JJ - We win about 80% of the time so 160 is ours, we win 85
Against AK - We win 55% of the time so 110 is ours, we win 35.

- 35 - 35 + 85 + (3x35) = 120.
120 / 6 = 20

Average Profit 20

For the AK you do 3x35 because AK is x3 more likely than a pp right ?

That's good now what if I want to do this same calc when I hold KK vs a range of JJ+, AK on a board of:

3 5 J

Villain has gone all in we have to call 75 to win 200 (just like in your prev example to keep it simple)

Now I have to count combos right?

i'm ahead crushing 6 combos of QQ and 16 combos of AK, Im behind crushed by 3 combos of JJ and 6 AA.

so Im ahead 22/31 which is about 70%. This is where I get stuck.

My equity in pokerstove is roughly 56% - How do I get to this number by my own self without pstove ?

BTW The pot odds all I make out of them is that I need to be good here 75/(75+200) which is 27%. obviously when I get to the combo count and im good 70% im happy - but I want to be able to get to the 56% number that pstove provides by my own self.

The AK can improve to beat you... This is where most of the % is missing but you missed out that section of the sum for all the hands.

Yeah I just multiplied it by 3 as it appears 3 three times more often

Yeah when counting combos I'm just considering ahead/behind kind of thing.

So basically we calculate our equity vs each hand in villains range and add them all together? This makes perfect sense. TX !

I guess in the same manner I can tally up together equities vs different hands although it's going to be a more complex calc, Will try to figure that out

Can you please clarify a little mind fail Im having with this?

Let's assume we need to call 75 to win 300

we're getting 4:1 so we're supposed to be breakeven (Bet / (bet+pot) is the formula I know to decide whether our call will be +ev or not)

but according to your calc 20% of the time we win 60 cost of play is 75 so we come out -15

Clarify please?

OK I think we need to say that with QQ vs AA when it's 75 to call and 300 pot we win 20% of the time out of a pot of 375 minus the cost to tall of 75 so it's breakeven.

Agreed, +1 for sure.

But i still think nutted combos matter on all streets preflop-river and is more important then learning equities unless you are playing tournies?, as opposed to equity which matters preflop-turn.

Studying raw equities with our range or hand vs range in a spot before river is still what i need to work on :l