Just looking at ranges on HRC and have noticed its possible to profitably shove 54s in the SB with 20bb deep. Does this mean then that at the very least I have to raise fold this hand? I mean if I can profitably shove; should I ever fold this hand in this spot? 54s is actually a hand I'd fold most of the time in the SB so am I leaking here?? I just feel that Vs a decent player, 54s is not great post flop 20bb deep.

There's a difference between Nash push/fold hands and hands that automatically show a profit. A hand like 54s might be part of a Nash range because its impossible for a player to exploit that range without playing loosening up to a point where they're losing more money to a player's value-range. On its own though, its very easy to exploit a shove by 54s by just calling all six-high or better. This might not be true for a better connector like QJs, where even if a player is playing perfectly against it it will never be a -EV shove. For hands that automatically show a profit with a shove, you obviously can't fold.

Are you talking about HU when SB? If so you should never be folding 54s. Limp or m-r will show a better +ev than folding.

54s is not a jamming hand 20bb deep for nash. If you want, you can just call preflop with a hand like this, as I would not raise/fold or jam with 54s. Calling or folding this hand preflop is probably the optimal play.

Funny as it sounds 54s is actually ok to push if you are in a tough table and you have antes too at 20bb depth (unless other tiny stacks exist in a final table case and BB covers easily).

This is because any range that marginally includes a hand like 54s is say a 60% range. That is wide (but its near the Nash push level for 20bb) but in calling it the BB at 20bb depth needs to have at least 48%+ especially with ICM considerations.

See here an example that clears it lol

http://www.holdemresources.net/h/web...5&s8=&s9=&s10=

And the only hands that have at least 48% vs 60% range are like 33-AA, a2+,k7o+,k5s+,QTo+,Q8s+,JTs ie some 33% of hands.

Against that range 54s has 37.7% when called 33% of the time say.

So you get away 67% of the time for 1+antes~2 bb say in a not very short table and the other 33% you lose 0.377*(40+1)-20=-4.54bb

Overall then -4.54*0.33+2*0.67=-0.16>-0.5bb of folding.

Plus the true ICM call range is probably even tighter than 33% even if they dont know it. Its really hard to call a push for your last 20bb with some JTs or Q9s or even 33 or K2s to be honest. So they wont lol!

Even with ICM it clears it typically only because the all in happens <33% of the time and not the majority. Contrary to that the caller that is 100% at risk is having a much tougher decision than the strict chip EV clearance.

Now if you are in a table that people play bad loose just fold it because if the BB is some loose idiot that doesnt get it you will get called a bit more often say and still lose because its a bad hand vs any range usually.

Also if they are very tight its definitely plus EV but it may get the same results or better with a raise/fold because you know when they call or push they have it and you can call and exploit post flop if you hit well and trust their bets are the real thing or you can just fold to their 3bet preflop.

Raising 2.8bb looks strong for example in order to take down 2.1+ save your blind. Its hard to be called by a tight person for 1.8bb with so many trashy hands.

54s will connect spectacularly well for semibluff all in opportunities or miracles vs a single player that has tight range when they call preflop. By that i mean that yes you will be folding most of the time but you will be getting some 7.5% great flops (flush, straight, 2p, trips or better) and some 20%+ super cool draw flops (flush draw,open ended straight and some backdoor flush draw, one pair and open ended, one pair and flush draw, gut draws and pair and backdoor flush draw etc ) and some 15%+ that you have a second pair anyway without aces or Kings showing there and they probably dont yet have anything (eg vs a 45% minus top 10% range in some flop like 5h 8d 2c you are over 65% equity, make that 2 into a Q and its still 58%) that can be put to use where as the aggressor due to ICM you are exploiting the caller that will need great equity vs a pushing range to continue at flop.


So maybe a raise/fold preflop is better than push in some cases if the opponents are not very strong.

A raise is also a strong range that includes all top hands since its hard to imagine someone open pushes 20bb AA here and risks not getting called or bullied all in so often.

So in a way a raise here is all the good hands and some of the semitrashy, blockers and multiple draws hands that can fold to a 3bet push preflop but have a strong chance to either play ok safely post flop when called (i mean they know their risk and will continue only if very nice without ambiguities) or get away with stealing.

Are you playing a HUSNG (in position), or are you in the SB OOP on a bigger table?

In both cases, you can play a lot wider than the Nash Push-fold ranges for 20bb stacks if you allow yourself to use strategies other than "push or fold". I think jamming 54s is profitable if you play strictly push-fold, but you'll have a better EV with that particular hand if your overall strategy (for your entire range) includes open shoves, raise-calls, raise-folds, raise-shoves, limp-calls, limp-raises, limp-folds etc, and you pick the right line for 54s. Don't open fold though. 54s is a good hand.