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Does GTO cap our calling range? Does GTO cap our calling range?

07-21-2017 , 01:27 PM
I'm reading "Applications of NLHE" by Janda, and on the flop he advocates a 2:1 bluff to value raising range for flop bets if I remember him correctly when having called in position.

So, now we can clearly feel comfortable raising our sets+two pairs because most of the times we'll just have draws (our best bluffs) and our opponent can't exploitatively fold. The thing is, where does this leave our calling range?
Does GTO cap our calling range? Quote
07-21-2017 , 02:29 PM
Just wanted to point out that Janda's strategy is not a Nash equilibrium solution which is the more general term for the GTO vernacular used in poker circles.

So the answer to your question is no. In fact often times GTO strategies take lines that prevent exploitation which having a capped range is typically exploitable.

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Does GTO cap our calling range? Quote
07-21-2017 , 03:16 PM
Your calling range will mostly consist of bluff-catchers that make it hard for villain to make money by bluffing. i.e. If your raising range is polarised, but your calling range is condensed/capped, villain still can't really attack your capped range by bluffing "too much", because you're going to call his bluffs.
In spots where raising all your monsters would leave your flatting range too weak/capped and more vulnerable to bluffs, you'd "protect" that range by sometimes flatting/slowplaying some of the stronger combos, again to dissuade villain from bluffing.
Does GTO cap our calling range? Quote
07-21-2017 , 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
Your calling range will mostly consist of bluff-catchers that make it hard for villain to make money by bluffing. i.e. If your raising range is polarised, but your calling range is condensed/capped, villain still can't really attack your capped range by bluffing "too much", because you're going to call his bluffs.
In spots where raising all your monsters would leave your flatting range too weak/capped and more vulnerable to bluffs, you'd "protect" that range by sometimes flatting/slowplaying some of the stronger combos, again to dissuade villain from bluffing.
Yeah, that sounds right.

In general, yeah, your calling ranges will be capped. But if you are in a spot where your opponent could exploit your capped range you will have enough slow played traps in your calling (or checking) range to make your opponent unable to exploit your range being capped.

For example;
If you open raise from late position and your opponent calls from the bb and you get to a flop of Kc9d8s maybe you would like to check the flop back with hands like A9s, TT, JJ, and maybe even QQ. If you are deep enough, your opponent could exploit your capped range by making a big bet on the turn with a wide and polarized range and then making a big bet (these are often going to be over bets) maybe even he goes 2 time pot on the turn and rips it all in for 2x pot on the river. He can create a range that has all his value hands (anything Kx or better) and balance that with a ton of bluffs and he can effectively capture the entire pot in EV.

What can you do to stop him??

Add some traps to your check back range.

You won't have that many hands that want to check back anyway and he is probably going to have to use big over bets to take advantage of your capped range so maybe you only need to check back KK. That will allow you to have a couple combos that stack him if he tries that and you will also have TT that can sometimes turn into a straight on the river. You can decide to maybe raise traps on the turn which also allow you to bluff raise on occasion as well.
Does GTO cap our calling range? Quote
07-22-2017 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donovan
For example;
If you open raise from late position and your opponent calls from the bb and you get to a flop of Kc9d8s maybe you would like to check the flop back with hands like A9s, TT, JJ, and maybe even QQ. If you are deep enough, your opponent could exploit your capped range by making a big bet on the turn with a wide and polarized range and then making a big bet (these are often going to be over bets) maybe even he goes 2 time pot on the turn and rips it all in for 2x pot on the river. He can create a range that has all his value hands (anything Kx or better) and balance that with a ton of bluffs and he can effectively capture the entire pot in EV.

What can you do to stop him??

Add some traps to your check back range.
I think you're right about the concept, but that board doesn't work as a great example. If we're going with something like 1/2 pot for c-betting in this spot, I don't think there's any need to check back any hand better than KQ. Sets are very clear bets for value, as are K9/K8/98s, AA, AK and probably KQ. Bear in mind that villain should 3-bet pre with his best Kx, plus 99/88 at some frequency too, so we have a huge "nut advantage". By checking back some KJ, KT, and all K7s-K2s, we've already got plenty of bluff-catchers that protect our check backs with QQ-TT, 9x, 8x etc. Also note that those check-back hands will sometimes improve to trips or two pairs on the turn, or pick up a backdoor draw with our pair, allowing us to realize equity easily. It will be very hard for villain to bomb turn and river as a bluff when we have so many combos that don't fold, and - on most turn cards - he'll only be repping a tiny handful of monsters.
Even on a bad turn card like say the Tc, if villain bets 2x pot (repping QJ/J7s/76s, and balancing with random air or backdoors), we have some of those straights (J7s and 76s could certainly check back flop), we make a set with TT, two pairs with KT, pick up some backdoor NFDs w/ hands like A9cc/A8cc, have a pr+SD with KJ etc etc.
In short, we don't need to check back sets when we have so many other hands with which to call villain's bluffs. In this spot, our sets want to build big pots, starting on the flop.
On another board where we don't have "nut advantage", we might be more inclined to slowplay/pot-control. In the vast majority of cases when you're in position as the PFR, however, you should be c-betting the top of your range, since that's how you maximise your winrate with your best hands, and also allows you to bluff in the same spot.
Does GTO cap our calling range? Quote
07-22-2017 , 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
I think you're right about the concept, but that board doesn't work as a great example. If we're going with something like 1/2 pot for c-betting in this spot, I don't think there's any need to check back any hand better than KQ. Sets are very clear bets for value, as are K9/K8/98s, AA, AK and probably KQ. Bear in mind that villain should 3-bet pre with his best Kx, plus 99/88 at some frequency too, so we have a huge "nut advantage". By checking back some KJ, KT, and all K7s-K2s, we've already got plenty of bluff-catchers that protect our check backs with QQ-TT, 9x, 8x etc. Also note that those check-back hands will sometimes improve to trips or two pairs on the turn, or pick up a backdoor draw with our pair, allowing us to realize equity easily. It will be very hard for villain to bomb turn and river as a bluff when we have so many combos that don't fold, and - on most turn cards - he'll only be repping a tiny handful of monsters.
Even on a bad turn card like say the Tc, if villain bets 2x pot (repping QJ/J7s/76s, and balancing with random air or backdoors), we have some of those straights (J7s and 76s could certainly check back flop), we make a set with TT, two pairs with KT, pick up some backdoor NFDs w/ hands like A9cc/A8cc, have a pr+SD with KJ etc etc.
In short, we don't need to check back sets when we have so many other hands with which to call villain's bluffs. In this spot, our sets want to build big pots, starting on the flop.
On another board where we don't have "nut advantage", we might be more inclined to slowplay/pot-control. In the vast majority of cases when you're in position as the PFR, however, you should be c-betting the top of your range, since that's how you maximise your winrate with your best hands, and also allows you to bluff in the same spot.
Right, so, yeah maybe in this case we don't need to check monsters back because villain just doesn't rep many huge hands and we can just check back some hands like KJ ball park. On this exact board yeah I get your point. But what if we are very very deep?

My thinking is that we will not have so many value targets when we block two kings? And that, if we are very deep, our opponent can still take the few monsters he flops and the ones he turns and just jam those down our throat for like 2x pot on the river and big over bet jam on the river with a polarized range of whatever monsters he has plus a number of bluffs and effectively turn even KJ and KT check backs into break even bluff catchers if he has the depth to do it.

And are we sure it's better to check KJ back and bet KK?

how much do you think stack depth plays into this?
and are we sure our nut advantage helps us on the turn after we check back assuming we would bet our nutted value hands on the flop? I mean, once we check back doesn't he have the nut advantage going to the turn?
Does GTO cap our calling range? Quote
07-23-2017 , 01:14 PM
If we're very deep, then I think that building a big pot with the nuts is more important than protecting the weaker parts of our range from bluffs. I appreciate there are blocking effects with top set, but you want to get some value with the top of your range. Generally speaking, with robust equity (nut hands and draws) we want to bloat the pot IP. With less robust equity, we want to be more cautious.
I mean, the summary "I'm the PFR, I'm in position, I'm deep stacked and I've flopped the nuts, so therefore I should... check" sounds kind of laughable, doesn't it? It's just as silly as the idea of slowplaying aces pre-flop imo.

Regarding nut advantage, we certainly have it on that flop, particularly with our betting range. When we check back, remember that villain has had no chance to fold any air, so although some turn cards will put some nut combos in his range, he'll still have some total misses. We'll also have some turned nut combos in our check-back range, and we'll also have enough typical bluff-catchers to stop him from getting way out of line with airballs.
On some runouts the BB will no doubt have a better range than BTN does after he checks back the flop, but that's kind of the trade-off you accept. You kind of choose on the flop to take the aggressive line and c-bet/barrel with a very profitable polar range, or you check back and go into the less profitable/breakeven bluff-catching mode against an aggressive/polar turn bettor.
Does GTO cap our calling range? Quote

      
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