In the local charity room where I play, the buy-in is raked at 20%, and add-ons are raked at 50%. Depending on the tournament, the add-on can be a different percentage of the total chips.

It seems like I'm looking at a simple math problem, but I have no idea how to approach it: The add-on has to be what percentage of my total starting chips to justify the 50% rake?

I'm approaching this with three assumptions that seem obvious to me:

1. A 50% AO rake is very bad.
2. Starting with a lot of extra chips for only a little more money is very good.
3. Having fewer starting chips than my opponents is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Here are two different tournaments which have a buy-in plus one add-on:

1. $30 BI + $10 AO = 10K + 5K = 15K chips.
2. $25 BI + $10 AO = 15K + 15K = 30K chips.

In format 1 the AO (and therefore the rake) is a smaller percentage of the $40 total tournament cost.
In format 2 the AO gets you a lot more chips.

Assuming all other things (such as blind structures) being equal, how do I approach a problem like this?

Find a new game.

Play these games for fun, to socialize with locals, and make some candy money now and then. But if you're trying to beat this game for profit.....try hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

I understand your answer. I'm not trying to get rich playing these games. After several years of playing only online, I'm playing beginner-level live MTTs to get used to the mechanics, and do things like put players on a range (which tracking programs largely did for me.) Casinos would be an option, but IMO not a great one.

The charity room is 8 miles from my house, and I can bring my own food and drink. My expense other than my buy-in and add-on is close to zero.

Most of the casinos are 100 miles away or more (the closest is 62 miles) which is a lot of extra driving expense. I would be eating casino food and drinking casino beverages. I haven't run the math, but that probably is more than the amount of extra rake that I'm paying the charity room to pay a $40 tournament. If I had to stay overnight to be able to play on consecutive days (the charity room is open seven days a week) then we're in an entirely different financial universe.

So unless someone can convince me otherwise, I think that my local room is the cheapest and most convenient place for me to learn to play live poker, and I think the players are bad enough that I can at least break even, and probably make a small profit while I'm doing it--yesterday I cashed in a tournament where four or more players limping preflop was common.

So I'm still open to answers to my question.

The first event is $24 + 6 on the buy-in and $5+$5 on the addon making the whole affair $29+$11 (72.5% goes into prize pool). Surely, if the players are very bad (which they undoubtedly are), then this is beatable although not by much. With a rake that large - do not tip on tournament cashes if you are playing to make a profit.

Do not compare % rake on the addon vs. % of chips. Compare how many chips you get per $$$ of buy-in and how many chips you get per $$$ of add-on. If buying an addon seems not worth it for a particular tourney, then playing that tourney is not worth it either as you are not giving yourself a level playing field taking away from your supposed edge while limiting your enjoyment at the same time.

My first instinct was to use the same idea of #chips/$ regardless of the rake but I don't think it's that simple.

Clearly this is an angle shoot to make a higher rake seem like a better deal or that the higher rake is a voluntary action by the players. This kind of shady thinking makes me wonder how much is actually going to charity. The whole thing stinks too much and I'd avoid it on that alone.

My intuition is that you'll be forced to take the add-on or give up too much relative value on the field despite it clearly being -$EV for the entire field to double the rake. It just seems like the numbers are weighted in that direction to such a degree that it was exactly the goal intended.

Unless you can organize a collaborative effort to boycott the add-on but then they can beat you over the head with the charity angle.

In any event the actual value of the add-on chips is also linked to how much skill edge you have over the field.

As to whether the tournament is beatable, I doubt it. Live events are just too short to provide enough skill edge for the kind of ROI you'd need.

Just to be thorough, how long does the event last and can you provide details on the structure and payout tables?

What's your goal with poker?

If you're looking to make money - find a new game.
If you're looking to learn to play better - find a new game
If you're looking to socialize with locals while doing something that you enjoy and occasionally make some extra money - keep playing there.

The rake is absolutely unbeatable, regardless of whatever buyin/addon recipe you concoct. Also, the idea that a fishier fish pond is more profitable for the skilled player is flawed. I'm assuming that the blind structure is just as absurd as the rake. So tournaments get into shove/fold territory pretty quickly. Even before that, people will call in huge spots with ridiculous crap because they are super super bad. So, you end up giving up huge chunks of equity very very often. Even if you get it all-in with aces against 72off three times.....you're still going home broke more than 50% of the time.

Playing there to "learn" is probably the most -EV thing you can possibly do. What you're playing is not real poker. It's bingo. The games are structured so that the biggest factor in determining a winner is the randomness of the cards. In other words, everybody wins, but more accurately, EVERYBODY loses. Especially you. BEcause not only are you losing money, but you're probably seeing and learning things that would never hold up in a casino game.

If you're into playing this game with any degree of seriousness, then get yourself to a casino or card room with larger fields, better blinds, lower rakes, etc. You can go to a casino and still be frugal. Put a case of water in your trunk, and pack a lunch.

I would rather drive 60 miles and play once a week in a $300 buy in event than to play in the games you're playing now every night.

Well, the way I look at it there are two distinct decisions here and OP can think about them in a flowchart kinda fashion.

1) Do you choose to play in the events this room offers? If yes, go on to question 2. If no, whether because of high rake, bad structure, tourneys being too small, etc... --> then ignore question 2.
2) If you choose to play, then your add-on decision should simply be based in #chips/$ (we are not gonna apply ICM here, since OP likely has an edge over the field and can use those extra chips better). It does not matter if entire add-on goes to the rake, if the additional chips are worth it in terms of increasing OP's chances to cash/win, then OP should buy them (or answer no to question 1).

In my experience, OP can have up to 2x edge on the field if he is familiar with MTT strategy and has some online experience plus reads twoplustwo (which he does). So, in the case of a 2x edge, OP would be able to cash for $58 on average (given $29+$11 split) giving him a $18 profit per event played. If OP has a more moderate 50% edge, then OP's profit per event played would fall to $3.50 per event played.

Also, OP should note that optimal strategy for this type of events will likely vary from online MTT he is so used to. For tournaments like this one, Poker Tournament Formula by Snyder will likely be way more useful than more advanced theory books.

I don't have of the information hand, but one of the things that makes this interesting is that every tournament is different. They have a deepstack tournament and a turbo tournament which are accurately named, since one does in fact give the most play and the other has the least. Blind structures vary, and some have 15 minutes and others are 20 minutes.

I asked for the blind structures and they would not provide it, so I'm going to start taking a pocket notebook with me and write them down during play.

Another wild card is strength of field. I actually ranked the best tournaments from 1-2 so I could target the days to play, and the Monday deepstack tournament was actually #2, because the structure isn't as good on Saturday afternoon, but the Saturday field is a lot weaker.

There are tournaments that have no add-on, $100 and $200, 27-player maximum, which alternate on Sunday afternoon. I don't want to play that high, but I'm told that they are in fact quite deep. I assume that the fields are much tougher than the other $40 to $65 tournaments.

Payouts are 80% of the buy-in, and not too flat, as they don't play a bunch of extra places, usually something like top 3 plus 1 spot for every two tables Tournament size varies quite a bit. I've played with fields from 20 players to 65.

As far as where I stand, I would say I am a little weaker than the field in the early levels, but much stronger in the later levels (I have played a lot of SNGs for several years.) I am considered a maniac when I try to get it all in with 20BB, or when I'm playing shove or fold at anything more than about 7 BB. Even though they know I'm shoving a lot (and talk about it at the table) they still grumble and fold much more often than they should.

I hope all that helps.

That should say that I ranked the tournaments from 1-5.

Clif, take it from me...I used to play these charity tournaments 3-5 days a week. THERE IS NO MONEY TO BE MADE HERE

The rake and the unpredictability of the field make this equivalent to walking through a field of land mines. You will be all-in, sacrificing a skill advantage and tons of equity, way too often. The cards are not prejudice and when the chips are in, you're gonna get stacked before the money a whole lot.

If they won't tell you the blind structure, not only should you leave, you should report it to the state.

Since you're taking notes and tracking things, start tracking your own winrate and roi. It should be plain pretty quickly that the ups and downs will make it impossible to play profitability to any level of satisfaction for any length of time.

Also your comment about being weaker than the field early and stronger later is a HUGE red flag. Huge.

Skill advantages are amplified as stacks get deeper and are diminished as stacks get shorter. So if you are being outplayed early, that should tell you something. You may be getting a boost because you are adjusting to the push/fold stage earlier than everyone else, but it doesn't sound like you have a real advantage over the field.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using 2+2 Forums

Thanks for the information.

The problem with being too tight in the early rounds is one that I'm plugging pretty quickly. I'm studying Johnathan Litttle's books and the Kill Everyone series (I don't remember which of those related books was published first) with special attention to holes that I need to plug. The two big holes are playing too tight early and not bluffing enough.

Your point is valid, but as I study and most of my opponents don't, I think I'll adapt and catch up pretty quickly. I'm playing live about once a week right now, so I'm not going to spew tons of money while I'm figuring this stuff out.

Your most important point (and others have said the same thing) is that it's just not a situation that I can can beat, whatever my skill advantage. Everytime I talk about this to someone. I don't know what to think about that. I have asked others about this, and the camps seems to be pretty even divided between two opinions: the players are so bad that you can make money, or the structure is so bad that you'll never make money,

I do track my results, but as my sample size is so small playing only once a week, I don't think I'll be able to tell much from that. I spend several days a week helping to take care of a relative with Alzheimers. Once that situation changes and I have more time to play, I can reevauate, and I will consider the information that I have received from you and others.

At that point I might have the free time to reevaluate making a few casino visits as well. But to be honest, without knowing more (casinos don't publish their blind sturctures either as far as I know), when casino food and travel expenses costs as much as charity extra rake expense I don't see how that's a financial win.

Clif - you're me about six years ago. If you want to take six years to figure out that the game is unbeatable, go ahead. But I'm trying to be a nice guy and help you skip to the end.

The players are TERRIBLE, but the structure is set up to HELP them. These places definitely want every single person to win once in a while. If you've gone to these places with any frequency, you know what I'm talking about. I'm sure you've seen some AWFUL players luckbox their way to tournament wins.

I was in a game at one of these places once, well into the "all-in or fold" stage, but only two or three people at the final table knew that. So there I am, stealing blinds, even showing down a good hand against some short stacks, when I pick up AQs in the cutoff. One limp to me (yes, people limp at this stage), and I shove for about 15BB. The player in the BB says "you're a bully" and calls with 74off. After I lost and walked away shaking my head, someone in the brain-trust tells me..."you wanted him to call". NO I FRIGGEN DIDN'T. You can't win when you're getting called by random hands, or even the hands in the unbelievably wide calling ranges these players have. You just can't let someone have a 30% or better shot at your whole stack over and over and expect to win big, consistently, or long term.

What casino are you looking at that doesn't publish their blinds. Maybe it's not on the website, but I'm SURE they have a sheet in their poker room that tells you what the blinds are for various buyins and field sizes.

Also, I want to see the accounting on "casino expenses = charity rake" problem. Keep a case of water and a box of power bars in the trunk of your car. If you win and want to buy yourself a steak, go ahead. If you lose and just want to cut your losses, you've got fuel for the ride home. You're also missing a huge part of the equation. Even IF the travel expsnes are more than the rake....you'll be making MORE MONEY.

And dude....stop reading books on tournament poker if you're going to stay in the charity hall. Seriously....just stop. You WILL drive yourself insane. You're playing in another plane of existence where any kind of normal or advanced strategy is completely worthless. You will walk away from the table saying "I got my chips in good...how could he call...he had to know he was crushed..."

In my opinion, you're not even playing a game that can be considered "Fun". The necessary strategy is so slow, methodical, and calculated and yet you still have ridiculous variance swings. No thanks.

Hi, not sure if you'll see this, or even if you're on 2+2, but I ran across this and thought I should update you.

1. I'm still in the caregiver situation, living in 3-4 days a week, so I'm clearly not putting enough time into poker to get rich doing it. As to the charity/casino question, I split the diference on that one. I'm playing better charity tournaments, sometimes driving 30-40 miles to different charity rooms to do it. The casino that dealt poker tournaments and was 62 miles away closed their poker room. The closest casino dealing tournaments is now 103 miles away and my wife and I share one car.

Here's what's going on:

1. I said before that the add-ons were raked at 50%. I have found some $50 charity tournaments that are depstacked freezeouts, no add ons. This brings the rake to a flat 20%. I've beaten a 20% rake before, playing $1 + .20 SNGs on PokerStars. 25,000 starting chips, starting blinds are 100/100 or 100/200 depending on which room I'm in. The structures are other wise identical.

2. I have to drive 35 miles to the 100/100 room, but they have larger fields and in some other ways are much the better room, for example, more and better information on their web site and weaker players. Tournaments in both rooms last more than six hours with 60 players, but the farther room maxes out at 60 more often.

The advantage of the local room is that it moved within walking distance of my home (1.8 miles.) Not a small difference in cost and convenience.

3. I'm still working on my preflop game, but it's definitely better. I'm fighting all of my tight old white guy impluses (I'm 59) and doing a lot of studying about when/how to play more hands. I actually have players at the local room arguing about what my ranges are. Some still have it in their minds that I'm tight preflop, while others have seen me win big hands when open-raising hands like 87s from early position.

4. I'm still playing with a very small sample size (about three tournaments a month) with an average profit of $150 a month (3 buy-ins.) More important, I'm identifying weaknesses every time I play, and when my caretaking duties are over and I can do this full-time, I expect to do some serious improving and profiting.

Thank you for taking the time and interest to respond to my earlier posts.

Personal opinion OP - I think the answers here are right. If you have decided 100% that you will keep playing there, you may still look for ways to beat the game but, as others said
- The books you have may not be as relevant
- You may not get as profitable as you think
- You may not improve in poker as much as you think. As a matter of fact, not improve much at all for other games

It is more of a case of "you can't have your cake and eat it".

Another idea would be to perhaps play some games where you have a better chance at improving and being profitable, and give some money from the profits to charity, or give to charity either way.

I need to clarify something. There is another force at work besides trying to get better and make more money at poker. We are living very frugally so that we can aggressively pay off our debts. Part of that involves never having another car payment. We pay cash for used cars and drive them for five years or more, then pay cash for another used car. We are sharing one car right now.

With my wife taking the car to work 5 days a week, and me being a live-in caregiver for a relative 3-4 days a week (which puts us about at least 10 miles apart) to say the least this isn't a situation where it's easy to drive 100+ miles to the nearest casino that deals poker tournaments. Frankly, there are weeks where I'm so tired that I don't trust myself to risk a buy-in two miles from my house.

So in some ways poker has to take a back seat right now, but it's all part of the bigger picture--improving our financial situation. The relative that I care for is my mother-in-law. She is about to turn 93 and has Alzheimers. This won't go on forever, so I'll get to get out and play more often at some point.

Also, as we pay off more debt, that frees up cash to pay for a second used car when we decide to make that choice. When we each have our own car and I am no longer a live-in caregiver, checking out casinos becomes a much more viable option.

This big picture is also why I'm concerned about spending extra money to drive to casinos and eat casino food. That is money that could go to paying off our debts--so I'm very happy that I found some deepstacked tournaments with no heavily raked add-ons.

Before long we will have no car payments. We will have no debt of any kind. We are renting, and we will inherit a paid-for house from my mother-in-law.

When all of that is in place I can pretty much do whatever I want. In fact, as a retired soldier I can get on any military flight with space available and fly free anywhere in the country. All I have to do is find a flight that lands somewhere near a casino.

Meanwhile, until we are in that position, I am practicing and learning. Every tournament that I play I pick one thing to work on, for example, looking for a certain type of tells, and tells are tells, whether I'm in a charity room or a Las Vegas casino. I'm also making a few bucks, which is not going against our debt. That is going toward another thing that I want in place when the time comes--my bankroll.

I apologize for not giving a clearer and more complete picture of my situation.

So, now that more than a full year has passed. How much did you make? What have your exact results been in terms of win rate and ROI?

If you can't answer that question with hard data that you've kept over the last 12 months, then I'm going to assume that you're probably losing money. Not because of skills, which still may be in doubt, but because the games are rigged.

Just because someone is a bad poker player, doesn't mean that are a complete nincompoop of a human being. Most people, even pathetic degenerates, have a breaking point. If these people were so bad at poker, and losing so much money, so often, wouldn't they stop at some point? Of course they would.

But they don't realize it because they win sometimes. Every bad player in that place can talk about a handful of tournament wins and big cashes. Those memories keep them coming back. This is because the rake and blind structure is designed to drive a random result. In other words, the games are SPECIFICALLY ENGINEERED so that more people make it to the push/fold stage where skill edges are significantly diminished and the random shuffle of the deck decides who wins and who loses. This assures that everyone gets a taste of success once in a while and that keeps them coming back. But over the long term, everyone there, including you most likely, is just riding the variance roller coaster while slowly bleeding more and more of your disposable income.

If you're in debt, STOP PLAYING POKER. Even if you were crushing these games, which you aren't, you'll never beat the rake on a credit card balance. at 25% a month, every buy-in that you happen to lose instead of put toward your debt, is costing you many many many extra dollars.

If I were you I would take the time that I use playing, and just go bag groceries for ten hours a week. Do that for a six months or whatever it takes to pay off your debt, and then go to whatever casino floats your boat.

Trying to play your way out of a hole is sure to be a disaster.

You will probably never profit alot in those games, Maybe start your own little private club instead?