well as the title already says:

i need a fairly accurate defintion for protection betting / protection bet

found this one:

"A protection bet is one made to protect a vulnerable made hand from a draw by ruining the opposing draw's pot odds, i.e. he must invest too much money to see the next cards so he cannot continue to play his draw."

anything to add? looking at it from a more PLOish point of view it should be added that there is also value in protection betting to not let worse made hands catch up (i.e. pair+3 live kickers vs overpair etc)

also: where is the difference between a protection and a value bet? value bet = bet/call and protection bet = bet/fold?

I mean if im betting because im getting a lot of calls from worse hands but have to fold against a raising range, is this still a value bet or more a protection bet?
or is the major difference in the amount of worse hands that call? (a rather small range of worse hands that call = protection bet)?


edit: what also would be pretty interesting: hand example for protection betting especially in NL (im a PLO player)
are there any? ^^

I really hate the term 'protection bet'. It normally just describes a situation where you're betting for thin value where you usually won't be called by worse. You're usually 'protecting' your equity against overcards.

Hero: 67
Villain: KQ

Flop: 963

You bet for them to give up their ~28% equity which is nice since they'll usually play better than you on further streets (you pretty much hate any card that isn't a six, seven or eight).

I use the term for situations where I bet for thin value, but don't really mind if the opponent(s) fold, since they have lots of equity when called. A typical situation might be overcards vs other non-pairs that might have other outs like gutshots. Or a small pair, especially on a paired board, ie you have 33, board is 667, you don't really mind if overcards, even small ones, fold, since they have so many outs. But you kinda still have to bet, because checking would be worse. A situation where you have, say, A2 on a A37 flop is way different because opponent never has tons of outs if he's behind and there are no problematic turn cards. No need to protect here, since all turns are essentially blancos that don't change the situation much from your point of view.

Protection betting simply means that you're betting to protect your equity in a pot. Sometimes that means protecting your opponent from hitting some of his outs, whether or not he's correct to call or fold; sometimes it means protecting yourself from being bluffed by bluffing first, thereby protecting your bluffing equity.

I'd say a protection bet is when most of our value comes from our opponent folding less than 50% equity pieces.Betting for protection is really not very common at all in NLHE, although some marginal valuebets are good because of the added value of protecting vs some hands that fold.

accurate definition for "protection betting" is vbet

This is a much better example than mine, nh.

See Phil Hellmuth on HSP for this question. heh

Value Bet - when you are ahead of villains current range AND his calling range
Bluff - When you are behind villains current range. Should only be made when villain folds frequently enough to make this a higher EV play than checking/giving up.
Protection Bet - When you are ahead of villains current range but behind his calling range. However he folds frequently enough or his folding range contains enough equity that this is still the most positive EV. The mathematical definition is if:


(Villains Folding Frequency/Villain Calling Frequency)*Equity of Villains Folding Range + 2*Bet Size * (1-Equity of Villains calling range) is less than the amount of the protection bet, then this is a profitable play.

Note: In the mathematical definition, Bet Size is defined as a percentage of the pot. i.e. if the bet is 3/4 the pot, then Bet Size = .75
Note: Since a protection bet basically involves forcing villain to fold unrealized equity, this bet can not be made on the river
Note: All bet types are a function of villains ranges

you bet for value when you want his worse to call;

you bet for protection when you actually want his worse (certain ones) to fold
(if they wanna call they have to pay for it) because they have anywhere from 4 to woteva outs vs you.

This. Its just a value bet.

Whenever you make a bet where you are behind your opponents calling range, it's a bluff. Just because you happen to have a hand that beats the hands that he folds doesn't change the fact that it's a bluff.

That being said, I think this "protection bluff" is useful in spots where:

A. You will have a hard time extracting value/avoiding being bluffed on future streets because it is hard to tell where you stand in the hand and whether your opponent out drew you.

B. Even if your opponent calls, you have set up a good double barrel on many turn cards that you expect to succeed often enough to be profitable.

C. You have very few outs to improve but your opponent has a lot of outs he doesn't realize are outs (someone mentioned 33 on a 667 board getting KQ to fold). In this case, you are still bluffing because if your opponent could see your hand he wouldn't fold.

This is a confusing topic for me, but I have seen it explained using EV equations. I think it was something like this.

f = prob(op folds)
c = prob(op calls)
hero_bet_amount = op_call_amount

EV(bet) = f * pot + c * [(EQ * AmountWin) - ( (1 - EQ) * AmountLose) )]
EV(bet) = f * pot + c * [(EQ * (pot + op_call_amount) ) - ( (1 - EQ) * hero_bet_amount) )]

A bluff bet, value bet, and protection bet can be understood by looking at the various terms in the EV equation.


Bluff Bet
c * [(EQ * (pot + op_call_amount) ) - ( (1 - EQ) * hero_bet_amount) )] < 0


Value Bet
EQ > 50%
c * [(EQ * (pot + op_call_amount) ) - ( (1 - EQ) * hero_bet_amount) )] > 0
c * [(EQ * (pot + op_call_amount) ) - ( (1 - EQ) * hero_bet_amount) )] > f * pot


Protection Bet
c * [(EQ * (pot + op_call_amount) ) - ( (1 - EQ) * hero_bet_amount) )] > 0
f * pot > 0
c * [(EQ * (pot + op_call_amount) ) - ( (1 - EQ) * hero_bet_amount) )] < f * pot


Additional Information
Given the above, it would seem that if opponent has a FD and we have TP, then if we bet too small to deny him correct odds to call then better chances of it being a protection bet, but if we bet large enough then better chances of it being a value bet. It also seems like if opponent absolutely hates to call with a draw, then there is a better chance that it will be a protection bet.

Maybe someone could look at all the equations that I wrote above and figure some more out from them.

No because on a bluff you are behind villain's current range, on a protection bet you are ahead of his current range.

It's a subtle but important distinction.

No, there are a couple of distinctions.
value bet you are ahead of villain's calling range
protection bet you are behind villain's calling range

value bet you're EV increases as you increase your bet size
protection bet you're EV decreases as you increase your bet size