When to retain few AAs in the 4bet calling range instrad of 5bet jamming? IP vs a tight range like BTN vs MP/EP or OOP vs a wider range like BB vs BTN? I would think that it makes more sense vs a tight range to dilute or equity disadvantage as in BB/SB vs BTN situation equities will be closer but then it is harder to realise equity there. While I see the merit of having some aces in both situations so we are not that capped but where should we have more?

I like to call AA vs 4bets when i estimate my EV of doing so >EV 5b. Its often vs high cbettors that maybe 4bet too wide or too big. In those spots i guess. BB vs 4bets from BU for example.

I never call KK or AA.

Why? And how do you play vs 4bets in general? Whats your sizing ?

Because I think 5 betting is the most profitable line.

Depends on the size and the effective stack. The smaller the 4 bet and the bigger the effective stack, the more I'll call. The bigger the 4 bet and the smaller the effective stack, the more I'll 5 bet or fold.
I click the pot button as default but will go bigger vs opponents that call too much and or 6 bet too much. Also, when the pot sized 5 bet is committing >15% of my stack, which leaves a stack to pot ratio < 3:1, I typically just shove, call, or fold depending on my hand.

If I understand correctly, this means you are making 20x jams over 4-bets?

20x?

I think it's OK to sometimes flat AA in position when facing a 4-bet, to help protect some of your lighter calls, and to give villain a chance to c-bet with low equity (with hands that would have snap-folded to a 5-bet). If you're OOP, you're probably better off 5-betting almost always.

Bob you're wrong this time. I would definitely be more likely to 5 bet if we were deep. And as arty says, 'protecting' those other calls is important. I don't see it as protection tho, I see calling AA as a sneak attack. It's a disguised play that I can play passively all the way. As this is my usual strategy when calling AA, villains who keep cbetting are my usual targets.

Can you please explain why you think it's in general EV maximizing to always 5bet AA/KK and therefore capping your 4bet calling range at QQ/AK?

Do you 5bet bluff a wider range because 100% of your AA/KK are in your value 5B range?

Assume villain 4bets to 30BB and effective stack sizes are 200BB. What's your 5betting size and what range (in addition to AA/KK) do you 5bet against an unknown player?

Do you think there's a stack size threshold where having a capped 4bet calling range might be a problem?

I'd have to agree with Yadoula8 here. Especially in MTTs early when the effective stacks are still deep, you're more likely while in position to get more Cbets out of your opponents. Not saying that I wouldn't 5bet AA/KK in certain situations especially OOP when I'm trying to get my opponent to shove depending on how much of his Eff Stack he has already committed.

With realistic effective stack sizes, I expect there to be enough 4 bets that my range does fine against even the best counter strategy precisely because that strategy contains 4 bet bluffs.
I think most 5 bet bluffs are near 0ev vs the best counter strategy, so I use a mixed strategy with stuff like A2s-A5s and 65s-KQs, and some other good suited hands at very low frequency.
Vs unknowns I'm shoving until they prove that they have a fold button. Depending on the positions and what I think of my opponent's 4 betting range, I'm at liberty to 5 bet many more hands than KK+ with no bluffs, or just KK+ and bluffs.

Definitely, but I never play that deep.

If UTG opens and you 3-bet kings in the CO, are you never calling a 4-bet? I think that might be a mistake. There's definitely nothing wrong with always re-raising with aces, but KK is not the same hand.

I wouldn't use "capping our range" as sufficient explanation to never do something.

It might be a mistake, let's talk ranges to find out:

utg 6 max opens 3x, I 3 bet to 10x, others fold, utg 4 bets to 30x with 170x behind.

at the first raise to 3x, I'd put a good range as something like this: 22+, A2s+, AJo+, KTs+, KQo, QTs+, JTs, T9s.

vs that range, I think 3 betting something like this is good with 3 or 4 players behind: JJ+, AJs+, AKo, 65s-KQs rarely, A4s sometimes, and A5s usually.

What do you think utg should 4 bet vs that?

Enough underpairs and big Aces to make me happy about shoving KK.

What do you think UTG's calling the 5bet with? QQ? AK? seems optimistic to me.

Also, if you're opening that on UTG, your range on ~K93 boards will be pretty weak, imo. And really strong on Axx, 225 boards..

+I'd rather 3bet A3s, than A5s IP.

Your ranges seem too lose to me. I don't know if people actually play like that 200bb deep..

Maybe they are. Maybe your opponents only call your 5 bets with KK+, AKs when utg vs the cutoff. I can't speak for your experience and I'm not claiming my ranges are perfect.

I think that's ok. This whole situation started with utg 6max raising and me 3 betting him with three players left to act. I should have a pretty strong range on a lot of boards vs the range that I get action from when utg calls the 3 bet. There are also going to be boards that put me at a slight disadvantage, but I think this is an inevitable result of playing an asymmetrical game where hands have the ability to improve or regress. It's not like a bad flop hits and all of a sudden our opponent's ev is anywhere near (pot). We're still going to have a share of the pot, it's just going to be smaller than ideal.

Interesting. Perhaps I'm overvaluing the pair power of the fours and fives in the A4s and A5s combos I'm 3 betting.

Ok so assuming their range for 4 betting is QQ+, AK. If they fold 6 combos of QQ and 12 combos of AK, that means they'll be folding 18/34 combos. That's like worst case scenario for us 5 betting KK, with the exception of an opponent that only 4 bets KK+ or just AA. But wait, where are our opponent's bluffs?* If they don't bluff, then they're not playing their part of the equilibrium thus their strategy of 4 betting with QQ+, AK is not correct. This means they must be missing some type of value somewhere.

*I realize that "preflop semibluff" is vague. I think of it more as "playing the best drawing hands for a small profit."

I'm not sure about 200bb deep, but I think UTG's 4-betting range should actually be quite small. Maybe he 4-bets QQ+/AK and then a couple of bluffs like ATs and A5s or KQs, with the intention of flatting a 5-bet with AK and QQ. If you 5-bet huge, he only continues with KK+/AKs. Kings don't do well against that range.

EDIT: If you flat the 4-bet with KK, you have 60% equity vs QQ+/AK, ATs/A5s, and you can also call AKs, QQ and some suited connectors/suited Broadways if the 4-bet isn't too huge.

I agree that Kings don't do well vs that range, but I get much more action than just KK+, AKs in my limited experience.

So for now I tentatively conclude that 5 bet shoving KK performs fine vs likely non optimal strategies that I face at real tables. However, vs someone really good at poker I can see how calling the 4 bet with KK can be the most profitable line.

What Arty says has merit. I don't 5b much IP vs UTG 4b or vs. most players that cold 4b after I've 3b UTG player. Obviously shipping KK isn't going to be -ev imo though unless maybe ur 5b shipping at an awkward stack depth of like 120-140bb and UTG is sufficiently tight.