hi ronin,nice well
wich arguments ( concepts,etc) u use to decide a hand belong to a value hand or a calling hand (strategically ,possibly optimally not exploitivelly) ?
lets say we have top pair with flush OOP, then it s an easy value hand .
playability is easy because u see u have top pair and equity says so as well .
but it becomes for me much "blurry" , when we have lets say bottom pair or Ahigh with flush draw.
we have an equity advantage because of our flush draw but our hand is actually not that strong on turn if we miss and this where im a bit confuse on how to decide wich is the best strategy in a vacuum.
imo an example is much easier to show where my problem at , for trying to find the best strategy period.
we are OOP , i have 54s i call in BB UTG raisor 6max table cashgame
UTG migh have around 15% openraise range.
now its the trick has how to find the best strategy in a vacuum where im mix up.
we have a flop 59K rainbow or 25K rainbow.
we have imo here, a good check calling hand on flop with about 40% depending on wich range u distribut in a 15% open range for UTG. We can turn our hand into a bluff by starting to c/r folding to a 3bet from villain, but imo we have too much equity with this hand to do so .
my problem comes here ....
lets use the same situation but instead of 59K rainbow we put a K9s5h flop wich gives us a flush draw has well has bottom pair .
now if we only use equity , than our hand would be on the top ( or close to it) to our value hand range and we should check raise the flop .
but is it really ?
i think maybe our hand is misrepresented to ourself because our hand isnt as strong has it seem to be .
if we c/r flop and we get call and we miss on turn our flush, than it becomes really ackward on what our action should be imo.
lets say 2h hit turn , with still our flush draw we are around exactly at 50% equity while without the flush draw we are still at 40% equity.
if we didnt raise fop with our flush draw on flop we wouldnt of put our stack ( NL poker) or money (limit poker) at risk and our hand would of been disguised a bit, better balance imo for the rest of our bottom pair that dont have a flush draw .
we could be less exploitable by folding less often on turn and river because villain know we still could have a flush draw that wont fold when a flush hit on river and we could donk bluff ( for example) alll our bottom pair for bluff ( no flush) since its mix out with possibly our bottom pair when we hold the flush . ( hope im clear here).
my point is, seem to me, even with a good equity edge ( weak hand like bottom pair + flush draw wich are biased because they are boosted with the flush draw), some hands shouldnt be decide solely on equity to define a hand belonging in a value bet range or a calling hand range ( do i make sense ?),because i feel (wrongly ?) our hand range on river would have to many gap , especially OOP.
If we were IP , it would be much easier to raise bottom pair + draw ,because we have a lot more option for free card, free SD, etc. on turn and river.
so if any of the garbage i dished out here is valid ( not too long
, and comprehensible since im not good in english obv.), equity isnt the answer to choose the "best strategy in a vaccum" .
But if it isnt , what other avenue is there to find the right strategy for optimal play ?
in MOP, static board was pretty easy to analyse but on drawy board, strategy seem to break down on finding wich strategy is better to choose .
do u have any idea on where i could find info, what factor im missing , what route can i take to find the answer on how to choose the best strategy without using equity ( is there any other way?)?
or basically no method exist yet ?
even when i m watching hand history , so much different answer occurs, im not too sure yet how to proceed.
furthermore, when we take into account flopzilla, flush draw shouldnt be much of a factor since they dont happpen often enough to bother with it HU, THIS was what made me doubt a lot more on what i tought i knew already what was the best strategy with for example : bottom pair with flush draw OOP, etc..
maybe im overthinking it
i just dont want to start analysing a load of strategy with hand range if my strategy is false , right at the begining...
ty if u ever can answer to that long bs post
if u cant , np !