I'm quite confused right now. I just watched the 1997 WSOP on youtube and I can't believe Stu Ungar called when John Strzemp when all in.

Stu had: A4
John Strzemp had: A 8

The flop was: A 5 3.

Then John went all in and Stu thought about it for bit and called.

Turn was 3 and River was 2

So Stu beat him with a straight.

Obviously I'm not here to question his decision and he obviously had his reasons. As a newbie, I understand his reason. He might had straight draw but it wasn't open ended one. Is it bit risky? I don't think he won because of luck simply because of what and who he is.

Someone care to explain? The number of times when I was on a close ended straight draw, I usually just fold. Too many bad beats for me, lol

He had top pair + gutshot draw and I'm sure they weren't very deep, why would you ever fold?

omg why

he had the toppest of pairs

Run good? Snap call

Running bad? Fold

It was prolly a bad call marginally but even in this case he had 7 outs and a chance to end it right there so like what's the ****ing problem you mother****er.


[Mod note: let's not call people mother ****ers please]

Stuey didn't call, he raised and put John all-in. His play was 101% correct and John's was 99% and that's poker. Stuey was ahead of his time, ahead with his stack, ahead blind EV and ahead on putting his chips in the middle.

you calling me a MOFO? the chance to end it right there? I'm sure he's smarter than that. he's was not doing it just to end it.


I don't think its simply as that. I'm pretty sure he knew John had top pair also with maybe higher kicker with his amazing judgement of character. I suspect a better reason.

Stu wasn't exactly famous for big folds. I remember reading someone saying that in his first WSOP, he'd have been bust if anyone had been able to beat his top pair.

BTW, OP really butchered the hand: The action was roughly:

Ante 2k
Stu: SB (10k)
Stzremp: BB (20k)
Stu raises to 60k
Stzremp calls

Flop: Ac 5d 3h (124k)
Stzremp bet 120k
Stu raises allin.

Stu has both a gutshot to a 2 and a backdoor to a 34567 straight. The backdoor appears to be worth about 2.5% equity (34.8% vs 32.3% for A2o).

He certainly had enough discipline to win 3 WSOPs. How did you work that one out if you don't mind to tell me? Sorry, I'm still new at this

This whole thread is gotta be a joke... Incredibly standard to get it in on this flop with under 30 BB stacks, which they were.

Forget about what happened after they are all in and that Stu that way won the 3rd one and focus instead on the avg what you expect to happen here.

Both players made mistakes in this hand.

I will return to this with math when i get the time so that the hero worshiping of an otherwise top gun player can stop and the rational critical thinking can start instead. Given how it happened which is very different than OP made it to look like, see the youtube video to get better perspective;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhpJLb1XDgo


one can easily see that its not at all standard to get it in like that and not at all a great move to push for so much after opponent has already made a pot bet on this flop and given that villain has only A8o here its also stupid for him to call for so much because he doesnt have the needed equity vs the pushing range, even if you include some bluffs to it, which we must not really, because bluffs with nothing after pot bets for so much are idiotic and non existent to rare basically.

The thing here is that Stu's push is not terrible at all but its not good either and its marginally negative actually and unworthy of his great skill edge. But the call is even more wrong (which is one more reason the push is wrong from the skill edge perspective as he gets called so often given that opponent called with only A8o meaning in this spot opponent's playing bad style hurts Stu actually!) . Basically the call is looking at some needed 40% equity which is nowhere near a real 30-31% here and the push is also looking at some fold equity that is over 50% which is not here easily after a pot bet and when called it has small equity near 30% which it would be ok if the push wasnt for so much. Basically he pushed for over 3.2 times the pot size after villain's pot bet. That right there is excessive and bad waste of chips in general because he gets called very often and he doesnt have the equity for it.


Learn to look at the details of the hand not that in general its ok when short stacked to push with some draw and pair. Of course in general that is ok if you act first and the push is not excessive or if you act after a smaller bet and the push is again not so huge. But acting after a pot bet of guy that was raised preflop (read to that strength of at least AX type) and still going 3.2 times over the size of the pot with something that even if called by just some AJ or AT it has 31% equity is bad because it is called very often and this essentially victimizes Stu's skill edge and makes it easy to be defeated!!!

The fact is as the money went in Stu had only 35%.

Here's an interesting read on Hellmuth's read on Ungar's read

http://www.railbirds.com/blogpost/38...d-in-1997-wsop

Not buying for a moment that Stu didnt know both his cards accurately. Thats plain reckless and in fact see my video link and you notice that he has spotted looking at his cards 3 times, preflop one by one and post flop both at once (50-57sec). Now i dont know what Hellmuth is talking about and how much horsing around is involved in Stu agreeing with him for fun maybe but i honestly do not respect Hellmuth's math understanding of the game anymore, although i respect his reading abilities and overall experience. The way he has been eliminated past few years is totally reckless if you ask me so maybe he wouldn't mind a negative EV push as much as i do. After all he pushed this year too with a stupid 33 at flop with overcards showing and opponent betting in an almost impossible for opponent to fold situation and only 10 left to cash in (totally reckless really a master class example of totally garbage bs kind of poker in all the decisions he made with the hand that is totally unworthy of his history and insulting to all poker players that consider themselves nongamblers and rational thinkers instead). Look how he played 33 preflop and postflop with 20bb left and you will be totally shocked i promise you;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTkNSOwpmp0

Steady on! I'm not giving Hellmuth any kudos here Yeh I remember the 33, it was terrible. Just posted the link on Ungar's hand because it was interesting. How hands were played back then compared to know was what got my interest. As for knowing or not knowing his holes cards, I don't know - but it isn't as unusual as you might think for a player to make a standard raise preflop when he is heads up and has seen that the first card is an ace.

Stu's play is genius, he reads his man for "his donk bets are usually a sign of weakness" and since he showed AA in the pocket the last time he donked, hes thinking, "now is a good time to donk with his bluffing range". If this is the case then hes shoving A4 which will sometimes be the best hand and he will win the pot uncontested and when its not hes turning it into a semi-bluff (john may fold a better ace) which has 7 outs. If he loses he still has the chip lead. Shoving flop seems better than calling and folding is out of the question. Easy game.

Sick bump

haha yea I just watched the high roller stu ungar movie and begun to watch the 1997 coverage after.

What a boss, 3x world champion and still in my mind the greatest player to ever play the game. I can't believe he would be dead within 12 months of this coverage. I thought the final hand was interesting and might have been a mistake on Stuey's part, but im pretty sure his reasoning for doing what he did will follow at least in some part the above.

Any bump that reminds us how far ahead of his time Ungar was is fine by me.

Possibly the best all around all discipline card player to ever live.

I just wish his life had gone differently, although I can not imagine him commentating or writing books to give away his methods.


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