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| iMEGA Discussion Post your questions, comments and concerns about and for iMEGA here |
09-01-2009, 10:54 AM
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#1
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Chairman of iMEGA
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 150
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UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
The 3rd Circuit decision on our UIGEA challenge came back this morning. They upheld the law, but as indicated by questions during oral arguments, they seem to be saying - "if the state where the bet is placed says internet gambling is illegal, then processing that payment is illegal"...meaning that it is not illegal if the state doesn't have a law saying internet gambling is illegal.
Also, they clarified that the Act does not make internet gambling illegal.
Important passage:
"To the extent that Interactive's hypothetical raises a vagueness problem, it is not with the Act, but with underlying state law. It bears repeating that the Act itself does not make any gambling activity illegal. Whether the the transaction... constitutes unlawful Internet gambling turns on how the law of the state from which the bettor initiates the bet would treat that bet, i.e. if it is illegal under that state's law, it constitutes "unlawful internet gambling" under the act." p6., iMEGA v. Holder, US 3rd Circuit decision
Also key:
The Act prohibits a gambling business from knowlingly accepting certain financial instruments... if such gambling is illegal where the business is located or from which the individual initiates the bet (note: the state where the bettor is), p6., iMEGA v. Holder, US 3rd Circuit decision
So, we lose, but in a way, we have some measure of a victory here. Arguably six (6) states make it illegal to engage in internet gambling. Forty-four (44) do not. UIGEA does not make internet gambling or processing transactions for internet gambling illegal in those forty-four states.
Here's the decision: http://www.imega.org/wp-content/uplo...r_decision.pdf
We'll have analysis and a statement later today.
Joe@iMEGA
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09-01-2009, 11:16 AM
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#2
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grinder
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 442
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
I'm not a lawyer, but from the sounds of it this is about the best we could have hoped for. I know this has been posted elsewhere, but what are those six states again?
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09-01-2009, 11:32 AM
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#3
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veteran
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: STL
Posts: 2,164
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe@iMEGA
. Arguably six (6) states make it illegal to engage in internet gambling. Forty-four (44) do not.
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I know its been talked about before but I don't know which or where.
Can someone give a breakdown of these arguable six states, and also some states of the other 44 where its most likely gambling is/will be legal online.
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09-01-2009, 11:41 AM
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#4
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banned
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Future Razz world champion
Posts: 245
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
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09-01-2009, 11:45 AM
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#5
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tax practitioner
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 697
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Gambling-law-US lists seven states that have an express prohibition against Internet gambling: Illinois, Indiana, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, South Dakota, and Washington. I don't know how current Chuck Humphrey's analysis is.
-- Russ Fox
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09-01-2009, 12:11 PM
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#6
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grinder
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 442
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Well the PDF specifically mentions Hawaii and Oregon as two examples.
They also assert that gambling in the home is not a constitutionally protected right.
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09-01-2009, 12:34 PM
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#7
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veteran
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 3,335
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
I have not yet read the decision. However, I'll admit I'm confused. Does this mean that banks in a state that does not expressly prohibit online gambling do not have to follow the UIGEA? If so, then this is great for online poker. OTOH, does this mean that some party has to sue in each state to establish whether the UIGEA applies in that state. Also, how clearly must the state law prohibit online gambling for the UIGEA to apply in that state?
Maybe I'll know more after I read the decision, but from the G911 summary, I doubt it. I'll post more thoughts after I read the decision.
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09-01-2009, 12:51 PM
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#8
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journeyman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 231
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Also, in those states that do have some vague question about the legality of online gambling(Not only Poker :-) ) is it the State's job to administer the law, or is the Federal government going to take it upon themselves to enforce the state law?? Does this decision now mean that the case against the Canadian payment processor is dead?? What does this mean for Sports Betting??
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09-01-2009, 12:51 PM
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#9
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White Knight of FL Poker
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,539
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
I don't see how this changes anything or helps us. We already knew that the UIGEA applies only to Internet gambling that is unlawful under state or federal law. The financial institutions still will overblock and they still won't go into the business of determining what laws do or do not apply and where. I don't see this as any sort of win for us. If we could sue financial institutions for blocking transactions that shouldn't be, this decision would help us. But the UIGEA gives them protection from such suits.
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09-01-2009, 12:58 PM
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#10
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White Knight of FL Poker
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,539
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55
Does this mean that banks in a state that does not expressly prohibit online gambling do not have to follow the UIGEA?
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I doubt it. Note that the decision talks about where the bet is initiated, not where the money transaction is initiated:
Quote:
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The Act prohibits a gambling business from knowlingly accepting certain financial instruments...if such gambling is illegal where the business is located or from which the individual initiates the bet (note: the state where the bettor is), p6., iMEGA v. Holder, US 3rd Circuit decision
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Banks won't be able to predict where the depositor is going to bet from, so they have to block every transaction.
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09-01-2009, 12:59 PM
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#11
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 22,405
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55
I have not yet read the decision. However, I'll admit I'm confused. Does this mean that banks in a state that does not expressly prohibit online gambling do not have to follow the UIGEA? If so, then this is great for online poker.
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The exact text that seems most relevant to your question is listed below. The issue of banks are not addressed here, but it does address the issue of companys knowingly accepting a wager ("certain financial instruments ") from a state where online gambling is illegal. From my reading I would assume that the location of the bank is not at issue, the location of the wager as well as the location of the business accepting the wager determines the legality.
From my reading the problem still remains for the banking industry which must now either determine the legality of each individual wager placed using a financial instruments initiated by the bank, or the bank can instead chose to block all transactions as a measure to assure compliance.
Quote:
We reject Interactive's vagueness claim. The Act prohibits a gambling business from knowingly accepting certain financial instruments from an individual who places a bet over the Internet if such gambling is illegal at the location in which the business is located or from which the individual initiates the bet. 31 U.S.C. §§ 5362(l0)(A), 5363. Thus, the Act clearly provides a person of ordinary intelligence with adequate notice
of the conduct that it prohibits.
Further, the Act cannot be deemed impermissibly vague in all its applications. For example, several states prohibit all gambling activity (except non-commercial, social gambling not at issue here) by persons within the state and/or specifically ban Internet gambling. See, e.g., Haw. Rev. Stat. §§ 712-1220(4), 712-1223; Or. Rev. Stat. § 167.109. Thus, if a person in Hawaii places a bet over the Internet, a gambling business that knowingly accepts a financial instrument in connection with that bet would unambiguously be acting in violation of the Act. Similarly, a gambling business located in Oregon would violate the Act if it knowingly accepted a financial instrument in connection with Internet gambling prohibited by that state's law.
It is true, as Interactive notes, that the Act does not itself
outlaw any gambling activity, but rather incorporates other
Federal or State law related to gambling.' See 31 U.S.C. §
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My thanks goes out to Joe and all at iMEGA for sharing the results with 2+2'ers first.
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09-01-2009, 01:02 PM
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#12
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 22,405
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu
I don't see how this changes anything or helps us.
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Joe - can you please comment on the statement above, your insight on how this in some ways removes the teeth of the UEGIA in 44 states would be very helpful.
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09-01-2009, 01:13 PM
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#13
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Triple Range Merging
Posts: 5,141
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu
I doubt it. Note that the decision talks about where the bet is initiated, not where the money transaction is initiated:
Banks won't be able to predict where the depositor is going to bet from, so they have to block every transaction.
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This is the way I read the ruling but it also raises an interesting ?. If the bills are passed that are currently in congress and some states opt-out Then the banks will be faced with them same problem. The banks will have no-way of knowing the place the wager or bet was made only the location the bank is in or maybe the residence of the person trying to cash the check. I wonder even if legislation is passed unless the UIGEA overturned then the banks may still over block transactions if they have no-way to tell the location the bet is made in.
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09-01-2009, 01:14 PM
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#14
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journeyman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 231
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Additionally, does the ruling call into question any of the DOJ's actions so far??
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09-01-2009, 01:23 PM
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#15
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,703
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Re: UIGEA: upheld, but legal in states w/o i-gaming laws?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BullGator
Additionally, does the ruling call into question any of the DOJ's actions so far??
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Of course not. There would have been absolutely no reason for them to do so in this case.
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