Which openings do you most dislike playing against?

[Nikachu]

I don't like playing against the cole system or any stonewall BS. Basically anything closed is gay.

[wlrs]

"Anything with the word system" was very well put. Vs the Grünfeld I've been testing the Hungarian variation (to be precise, 4.Qb3 which transposes nearly always) and have liked the resulting positions.

[TexAg06]

Originally Posted by Do it Right

Yip. There is a super effective line with an early Ne4. For instance:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cxd cxd 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bf4 Ne4!

The idea is really simple. Take on c3, finachetto your dark bishop and while the position presumably must be only equal, it plays like =+. Black's play is natural and very easy - while I'm really not sure what white is supposed to do. And it seems very strong white players who play this opening aren't really sure either! In my database sorted by highest black elo, this opening has results of +0 =4 -7 for the top 11 games. The white players were rated 2531, 2495, 2585, etc.

And my personal results with it were also phenomenal. The IM I played against started playing weak lines solely to avoid this line when we played. For instance: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cxd cxd 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bf4 Nc3 6. e3? when after 6. .. Qb6 black already is probably =+. You should be able to use the ICC search feature to find his games and results against the above lines. He plays like a fiend and was 2300-2400 5-min.

Interesting line, I've never seen the early Ne4. I guess this question is sort of tough to answer because it's dependent on how white plays, but what do you typically end up doing with your LSB in these lines?

[Do it Right]

Originally Posted by TexAg06

Interesting line, I've never seen the early Ne4. I guess this question is sort of tough to answer because it's dependent on how white plays, but what do you typically end up doing with your LSB in these lines?

There's a decent amount of flexibility for black there. First off it's important to note that white doesn't really have many options in the line. The standard position is something like:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bf4 Ne4 7. e3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 g6 9. Bd3 Bg7 10. O-O O-O

White's only major choice for deviation is 9. Ne5!? An interesting move but one that shouldn't cause black any major problems. In the standard position white has only one idea. 11. c4 and after 11. .. dxc4 black has choices. You have Kramnik playing his LSB to f5 there. In a near identical position (but with Rb1/b6 included) you have Kasparov going for the fianchetto. Some people (and Houdini) even go Bg4. I prefer the fianchetto but I don't think it's a big deal either way. You have a good position with a very simple but effective plan while white's play is very awkward. Again I think it's an equal position that plays like it's =+!

[TexAg06]

Originally Posted by Do it Right

There's a decent amount of flexibility for black there. First off it's important to note that white doesn't really have many options in the line. The standard position is something like:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bf4 Ne4 7. e3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 g6 9. Bd3 Bg7 10. O-O O-O

White's only major choice for deviation is 9. Ne5!? An interesting move but one that shouldn't cause black any major problems. In the standard position white has only one idea. 11. c4 and after 11. .. dxc4 black has choices. You have Kramnik playing his LSB to f5 there. In a near identical position (but with Rb1/b6 included) you have Kasparov going for the fianchetto. Some people (and Houdini) even go Bg4. I prefer the fianchetto but I don't think it's a big deal either way. You have a good position with a very simple but effective plan while white's play is very awkward. Again I think it's an equal position that plays like it's =+!

Man this is great stuff, I'm going to try that out in some blitz games. Thanks a ton for the help.

[Do it Right]

Sure. Just post a game crushing somebody with it!

[Do it Right]

In other news I know a lot of people hate playing against the Benko Gambit. It's rather amusing to see what happens when it gets played at the highest level. For some reason Bologan decided to play it against both Carlsen and Nakamura at the recent Biel tourney. Both games played out fairly uneventfully with the difference being at the end of the game white had one more pawn which then became a queen. Definitely worth going over since both Carlsen and Nakamura played the more old school line against it:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cxb5 a6 5. bxa6 g6 6. Nc3 Bxa6 7. e4

I don't really follow Benko theory but to my knowledge Kramnik's line with the kingside fianchetto and Rb1 basically put the Benko out of business so it's interesting and curious to see two very strong players choose a different line.

[YouKnowWho]

Cause that's what I play vs benko, duuuuuh.

[TexAg06]

Originally Posted by Do it Right

Sure. Just post a game crushing somebody with it!

Definitely will I rarely encounter it though, but now I can't wait to play against it.

A motif I've used a lot against class players (not sure if this is seen a lot at higher levels) is an ...a5 push after they try to play a3/b4 to clamp down on the c5 square. Usually the game goes something like 1...a5 2.b5 Na7 3.a4 (protecting the b5 pawn) and then I'll re-route the knight via Na7-> Nc8 -> Nb6 when the knight has the beautiful c4 square and attacks the a4 pawn. This works particularly well if the LSB's have been traded. Plus, it weakens the queenside dark squares and the bishop or queen can make use of the b4 square. I first saw this idea in one of Petrosian's games and if a white player isn't familiar with it, it can really be deadly. It's one of those deceptive ideas that looks like black has given up a ton of queenside space, but really white's pawn pushing has left a lot of weaknesses.

No real bearing on this thread, I'm just talking out loud.

[tepgn]

Don't like playing against surprise flank openings in blitz games, I always seem to fall into an early trap.

I used to find playing the Petrov's Defence vs much higher rated players often depressed them and made them play sub-par.

[MKarne]

Likings to me are so different from what is good, though one rates to do better with systems one feels good about (some also as playing against).

Benko is junk as it loses a pawn.

White "system" stuffs are crap as black simply gets it even instantly. If one doesn't like to play against them, there is another reason, e.g. I don't like to be put in some form and kept there as I want to be free.

I used to like 1.d4 with white as one has good control and can play systematically, but I changed and can't handle such play emotionally anymore. But it doesn't mean I don't think it's the best way of playing as one can simply outplay the other systematically and that's just great, especially with white where one is not a secondary and passive player.

Gruenfeld was my preference with black as not only it's something not to 1.d4 player's taste but avoids being stuck in some closed or/and passive stuff. But I changed and can't handle such thin systems emotionally in spite of knowing I play it the best.

I play KID with black, that's pretty strange as I can't handle 1.d4 with white but need to play 1.e4 or at least 1.c4.

I could play Slav (with -e6; with -Bf5 only during my technical few years) with black but there is always the risk of ending up in some stucky or/and boring and/or passive position. But it would somewhat fit with my old liking of playing French with black, that's in some ways similar to playing Gruenfeld as black has counter play (that's what I like) as well as again it's not to white's likings to play against it in many cases as well as it's not so easy for white until he is prepared well enough (the same for Gruenfeld with white).

The exchange French, I used to do well with it with black but that changed and the knight endings I usually lost with white and black in spite of knowing how to play them; it's much about not weakening the queen side pawns as if one does, one rates to lose, and other than that it's all passive at that ending, that is much the reason why I lose there. One could try opposite side castling if one wants to avoid the boredom.

At one time I liked playing some more open technical stuffs like 1.c4 and Caro-Kann, at the time I got delight of the technical stuffs and couldn't handle the closed playing as much, though together with Caro-Kann I liked playing the KID with black, that's not all strange as it is rather smallish (Gruenfeld is the opposite, like French from much part also is, with black in both cases) in the needed accuracy as well as quite free like some 1.c4 playing can be.

These days I can't handle 1.d4 systematic/closed play and usually play 1.e4, even as some closed, that has then a different feel to it really and with different possibilities also, and the only problem with 1.e4 is if it gets too thin, e.g. I don't play some Scotch anymore as it's like playing Gruenfeld and I need something a bit less open these days.

I don't like 1.e4 e5 with black for the same reason I don't like being so secondary against the 1.d4 either but want to play my own game (not too open, not too positional, not too strategical, not too tactical; pretty hard to explain) and be more free and do something serious rather than sit there doing next to nothing and play a great game to achieve just a draw.

I like to have something like my own game, and semi-open is good but not all necessary, depending of specifics.

If the opponent builds things closed, I often blow it more open, and/or I like having counter play, making it a real competition, not making things easy for the opponent but he needs to play like in a boxing match where the ring would be closed so he can't escape, and then we play.

Many smallish closed stuffs are like fighting one hand behind one's back or/and being closed with a rope to a too limited area moving, and the main thing is that there is nothing one really can do, that reminds me of the pushing match where both hands need to be kept down or so and one can only push the other - I hated the lack of possibilities in that even then, when I was about 10, and the same disliking has lasted to these days and in a poker world the disliking is e.g. about rock play where I would like there to be a rule of e.g. needing to open more hands, that would take care of the more action then. It isn't too surprising that I don't like nlh as much but prefer limit holdem and plo, for the action, though they too are often rocked, and nlh does not lack possibilities all that much but it does look like something closer to playing 1.d4 and 1.c4 rather than 1.e4 with white. I even dislike heads up limit holdem if the opponent is rocky (to my surprise that game can be rocked in many ways pretty successfully though it's self destructing, just to prevent me winning over the rake), and I feel relatively sick about such.

[ganstaman]

Originally Posted by MKarne

Benko is junk as it loses a pawn.

Wow that was a long post. Though tbh, once I reached here I decided not to read it all as this is either wrong or at the least an over-simplification.

[valenzuela]

The french.

[TexAg06]

I don't know how I forgot this one initially, considering I physically cringe every time my opponent plays it. I absolutely loathe playing the white side of the Old Indian lines, something like 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. e4 e5 5. Nf3 Be7 6. Be2 O-O 7. O-O c6, which is this position.



I think what frustrates me so badly is that black plays passively, but the structure is a very tough nut to crack. I remember seeing some of the old masters play it in Zurich 1953, so it's definitely a sound opening, just not particularly ambitious. Most of my games end because I try too hard to refute it, end up creating weaknesses in my own position, and then I lose.

If anyone has some good lines/ideas against it, I'm all ears.

[PyramidScheme]

I hate seeing the french the most by far. I always meet this with the exchange variation mainly because I know it infuriates french players. I think all open players obv hate to see the French, and a closed player playing the French obviously doesn't want to SEE it.

Now I get its not the best continuation for White, but at the CLUB level you wonder why White players aren't playing the exchange variation 100% of the time. I feel it's because they don't want to seem noobish. lol