OMG World Championship is On Anand Vs Gelfand

[Noir_Desir]

it's far from guaranteed that Aronian would have won any other format at the time. With the form he showed in the 8 games he played, i doubt it. Let me be results-oriented too for once: how can he win a double RR if he cannot even beat the lowest-rated player? So you cannot blame the boring WC match solely on the format of the candidates.

You could still address at least one time the difference between the FIDE knock outs (tm) of Khalifman's time and the current WC cycle. To say they are just the same is pretty far off the mark.

And concerning (really) long matches: If Kasparov had won in 1984/85 (instead of the match being interrupted), you could with some justification have said that the ridiculously long match led to the weaker chessplayer winning

[Do it Right]

He didn't ask whether I thought Aronian would have won a DRR.

As for the time control aspect, be careful of your argument. In Gelfand's knock out event of the 6 decisive games he played - 66% were decided in rapid/blitz time controls. Something that is completely standard for the format. His opponent in the finals, Grischuk, had 5 decisive games - 100% of them from rapid/blitz time controls.

[Noir_Desir]

Originally Posted by Do it Right

He didn't ask whether I thought Aronian would have won a DRR.

you critisize the knockouts mainly for producing Gelfand and stated many times that you would have liked to see Aronian.

As for the time control aspect, be careful of your argument. In Gelfand's knock out event of the 6 decisive games he played - 66% were decided in rapid/blitz time controls. Something that is completely standard for the format. His opponent in the finals, Grischuk, had 5 decisive games - 100% of them from rapid/blitz time controls.

that's shifting the goalposts. I said there was a big difference between the FIDE knockout WC and the current cycle. For instance, the final is played over 12 games instead of 6 at much longer time controls. The semifinal was 6 games instead of 4 at longer time controls. The others were 4 instead of 2, guess what at longer time controls. I'm not 100% sure but i think also the rapid games were longer and more in number before going into Blitz. Also the qualification process to get into the last 8 wasn't just a 2-game mini match knockout format but a combination of rating, a high-level tournament series (the FIDE GP), one spot for the organizer and one big knockout event.

The world elite except Carlsen was playing. The FIDE WCs of Khalifman's era were largely boycotted.

So far you haven't addressed any of these points.

Chess in general has seen a trend towards shorter matches, shorter tournaments and shorter time controls. If you compare today's cycle with that of the 80s and 90s, this trend is reflected. I don't love it, but it's because the money isn't there.

[Do it Right]

You stated I claimed Aronian would have won a DRR. I did not. Now you're stating that I've said "many times" I would have liked to see Aronian as if that's some sort of response. Then you claim I'm the one 'moving the goalposts'. Amazing.

Anyhow, you seem to have missed the point of my post. The vast majority of the knock out's events were decided in blitz/rapid. In Grischuk's case 100% of his wins came in blitz/rapid. For Gelfand, all but 2 were. This is a direct consequence of playing knock outs. Players play to avoid losing in the classical games and so you end up deciding all the games in rapid and blitz. Praising the knock out for its long time control is pretty silly when the vast majority of matches end up decided in blitz and rapid.

[All-inMcLovin]

Originally Posted by Do it Right

You stated I claimed Aronian would have won a DRR. I did not. Now you're stating that I've said "many times" I would have liked to see Aronian as if that's some sort of response. Then you claim I'm the one 'moving the goalposts'. Amazing.

Anyhow, you seem to have missed the point of my post. The vast majority of the knock out's events were decided in blitz/rapid. In Grischuk's case 100% of his wins came in blitz/rapid. For Gelfand, all but 2 were. This is a direct consequence of playing knock outs. Players play to avoid losing in the classical games and so you end up deciding all the games in rapid and blitz. Praising the knock out for its long time control is pretty silly when the vast majority of matches end up decided in blitz and rapid.

This post is clearly Doing it Right.

It's important to understood the role blitz/rapid games played in determining the match. As everyone here knows, blitz/rapid games have considerably more variance than classical games.

Yep, it's as simple as that.

Spoiler:

Goalposts not shifted. Let the penalty kicks begin!

[Noir_Desir]

Originally Posted by Do it Right

You stated I claimed Aronian would have won a DRR. I did not.

since you clearly like to go to amazing length in terms of nit-picking, where did i state that?

You state in one paragraph that the outcome (Gelfand) is ridculous. I don't think i'm stretching it too far that you would have claimed the same if Kamsky, Mamedyarov, Grischuk or Radjabov won. Then you are constantly saying that you hate the qualifying modus and would have loved to see Aronian. To claim that i'm the one shifting goalposts here is far from doing it right in terms of a discussion. Everytime i want a response to one of my posts you say that you didn't literally write something that i may have (and in fact have not) referred to in another part of my post. Discussion this way is rather pointless and annoying.

anyway, i don't care anymore.

[All-inMcLovin]

You guys just need to play chess and make up.

I'll be the arbiter, if it's okay for a boorish American (EuroRounders FTW) to be one for this match.

First one to pick a number 1 or 2, then I'll randomize for colors.

[networth]

just don't play the slav please

[mightytiny]

Finally got back here.....this WC match is well what I would expect from two older players. Do you think there is any excuse that a WC participant could miss getting his queen trapped like that? Makes me think of the Fischer game where he donked his bishop in game one.

[Vempele]

They were competing for who could make the most moronic move and Gelfand wanted to top Anand's g5 from the previous game. Prediction: next, Anand copies Kramnik and allows a mate in one.

[belgian in TO]

Originally Posted by mightytiny

Do you think there is any excuse that a WC participant could miss getting his queen trapped like that?

I don't know. Chess is a lot harder when Houdini isn't kibitzing for you.

Leko missed the trap as well in the live commentary and praised Qf6, before Anand unleashed gxh5!.

[KyleJRM82]

The eval monkeys often overestimate themselves, but it's also different commentating vs. playing in a World Championship match. That's really an inexcusable mistake for that player in that context.

[NajdorfDefense]

Originally Posted by Noir_Desir

you critisize the knockouts mainly for producing Gelfand and stated many times that you would have liked to see Aronian....
So far you haven't addressed any of these points.

Gelfand also scored 2-0 vs Aronian in the 2007 WC. At, ahem, 'classical time controls.' He finished 2nd behind Anand. In a double round-robin with the strongest players - Kramnik, Moro, Leko, Svidler.

[the time control was 40/2h, 20/1h, 15m+30sec/all]

He had to defeat Kamsky to get into the DRR, and he did +2/5 after Kamsky had upset Bacrot.

But let's ignore that because Gelfand is so WEAK AND BORING omgwtfbbq!

[NajdorfDefense]

Originally Posted by mightytiny

Finally got back here.....this WC match is well what I would expect from two older players. Do you think there is any excuse that a WC participant could miss getting his queen trapped like that?

As noted previously, the Queen escapes with Nc6, dxc6 Qxc6. Ugly position, but much better than resigning or giving the Q up.

[NajdorfDefense]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

or at the very least remove the tie-break.. It is incredibly retarded IMO. For as long as I can remember, if the WCC match ended in a draw, the current champ held the title, which means the challenger HAS to win classical games. IMO they should get back to it.

+1.

also, for those who still claim they want a return to 'old-school' Candidates Matches, with massive RRs, just look at Curacao, it's a joke. [the one 'crazy' thing Fischer was 100% right about.]

The top 3 finishers: Petrosian, Geller, Keres played 12 games, ALL draws, averaging 19 moves.[!!]
This was after Fischer had crushed the field by 2.5 in the IZ, going +13 =9 -0. [Amazing, ftr. Maybe even more amazing than the +15 =7 -1 in 1970, considering Panno resigned after Bobby tossed out 1. c4!]

So, Fischer, Benko, Filip have to go all out against each other and the 5 Russians to win, but the top 3 Russians could take it easy [Tal was sick and withdrew halfway thru]. That's why they switched to elimination matches and that's still the best method. Like everyone else, I agree on the need for longer matches at Classical time controls.