Which lines do y'all like as white against the Grunfeld? Currently I play the main line exchange stuff, but I'm beginning to realize that it's one of those lines that is sharp if you're getting into it, odds are that black knows it better than white.

All suggestions welcome

1. e4

FYP (and then 5. Qb3 to add pressure on light squares; or 4. Qb3 immediately).

I avoid bumping into the Grunfeld so have no experience, shall look into lines in a short while, that's a curious topic.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Bg5 1-0

Kasparov used to play the Gruenfeld back in the 80's.

Amen!

However, I think some prep should be done vs 6... c5 too. Then the game may continue with 7. Nf3 Bg7 (aka the Modern Exchange, as well as 6... Bg7 7. Nf3 c5) 8. Rb1 O-O 9. Be2 b6 10. O-O Bb7 11. Qd3 Ba6 12. Qe3 and so on.

Is there any difference if White plays 6...c5 7.Bg5? I don't know anything about the Bg5 line but it's hard to believe Black has anything better than 7...Bg7, which is the same as 6...Bg7 7.Bg5 c5.

The only reasonable alternative is 7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Qa5 9.Bd2, but it looks like complete rubbish.

EDIT - I guess the immediate 7...Qa5 is interesting too. Still, doesn't seem like it should be a serious problem for White.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'rubbish', but after 9. Qd2 Qxd2+ 10. Kxd2, as was played in the two FICS games with these opening moves*, it's a dull drawish endgame at move 10, which is not total 'rubbish' for Black in my book.

I haven't seen White try 9. Bd2, but after that Black can pressurize the centre by Qb6(-d6), Bg7, Nc6 (i.e. accomplish the Grunfeld goal), and I think White will have to move the d-s bishop once more to add protection to d4. Or maybe Black will prefer 9... Qa3.

As for the immediate 7... Qa5, it doesn't look too dangerous, but is the reason why White wants to develop the knight at move 7, without wasting a tempo on moving the bishop to g5 and then back to d2.

Bottom line: I think it's mainly about saving d-s bishop tempos here, not bringing it out too early but developing a piece that has a well-defined square, i.e. Nf3.

* The other 6 games featured 7... Bg7 transposing into the main line; maybe Chessbase users will find smth more interesting; Chesstempo has zero games with 7. Bg5.

I was actually thinking Bd2 looked stronger, but you shouldn't underestimate Black's problems in the ending after 9.Qd2 Qxd2 10.Kxd2 - after 10...Bg7 11.Rc1, we get to a theoretical position where White has a big plus score in the database. Although maybe Black has some way to improve on move 10 (10...h6!?).

In any case, while my "rubbish" comment may have been an exaggeration, I'm still not convinced by your argument that 6...c5 is an antidote to the Bg5 variation.

How big is the sample size? Could you share a typical game in this line?

I'm still not convinced that White can convert the slight development advantage (an active rook ready to jump to c7 and another one coming in soon) if Black defends decently (e.g. 11... O-O 12. Bxe7 Re8 13. Nf3 Bg4 Δ Bh6+ looks promising).

I didn't say that 6... c5 is an antidote, just that it's not less playable than 6... Bg7 and we should get ready for it.

The key in that line is not 12. Bxe7, but 12. d5. Of course the position is still fully playable, but it is unpleasant for black I think, and also far from your typical hyper dynamic gruenfeld stuff, which works great psychologically.

I think you nailed it here. I played through some variations in Chessbase last night, and couldn't help but have this same thought. People playing the Grunfeld really aren't aiming to get positions like those arising after Bg5. That move has several 2600+ GMs playing it. I'm going to give it a shot next time I see the Grunfeld. Thank you sir.

Some time ago, I was looking for a low(er)-theory alternative to the main lines, and started playing 5. Bd2.



After 5... Bg7 6. e4, Nb6 is best, as after 6... Nxc3 7. Bxc3 blacks counterplay agains white's center has less punch than usual in the Grunfeld.

The main line is 5... Bg7 6. e4 Nb6 7. Be3 0-0, after which you can just play chess .

That looks like a great line

But vs 5... Nb6, do you play 6. Bg5 Bg7 7. e3 or smth else? If yes, how do you deal with 7... c5 (if dxc5, the queens are traded and Black takes the c5 pawn soon)?

I thought this line looked familiar. GM Chrilia won a nice game in a similar line in the USCL back in 2012. He opted for a quieter setup without e4, though.

http://uschessleague.com/games2012/chirilasammour12.htm

There's a nice trick in this line: 8. Bb5! Seems like a strange move, attacking nothing and allowing Black to kick it with 8...c6 or 8...a6. I will explain this move, but first I would like to present a beautiful game by a teenager: future Gruenfeld champion, world championship candidate and all round good guy Peter Svidler.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1136287

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Bd2 Bg7 6. e4 Nb6 7. Be3 O-O 8. Be2 Nc6 9. d5 Ne5 10. Bd4 c5! 11. Bxc5 Nec4!

12. Bxc4 Nxc4 13. Qb3 Nxb2! 14. Qxb2 Qc7 =+ 15. Bb4 a5 16. Nge2 axb4 17. Qxb4 Bg4 18. f3 Bd7 19. O-O b5 20. Kh1 Qd6 21. Qxd6 exd6 22. Rab1 Rfb8 23. Rb4 Ra3 24. Rc1

The Gruenfeld bishops make a mockery of the knights.

Rc8 25. Rb3 Rxb3 26. axb3 Ra8 27. Rb1 Ra3 28. Nd1 Ra2 29. Nf4 b4 30. Nd3 Re2 31. g3 Bb5 32. Nxb4 Re1+ 33. Kg2 Bd4 34. Nc2 Re2+ 0-1


So, why 8. Bb5? The point is that after the normal 8. Nf3 Bg4 9. Be2, Black's best option is to pressure the centre with 9...Nc6. Bb5 discourages Nc6, and after 8...c6 9. Be2 Black does not have the same pressure. So why is 8...a6 a concession? Of course it weakens the dark squares but b6 is not yet weak and maybe the tempo will be useful later to prevent Nb5 or prepare ...b5.

Well, if we play by analogy with the Svidler game: 8. Bb5 a6 9. Be2 Nc6 10. d5 Ne5 11. Bd4 c5!? 12. Bxc5 Nec4? Now 13. Qb3! is possible, hitting the N on b6. Now 13...Nxb2? loses to 14. Bxb6 Bxc3+ 15. Qxc3 Qxb6 16. Qa3 e6 17. Rb1 Na4 18. Rxb6 (that weak square again) Nxa4 19. d6! with a large advantage to White.

So after 8. Bb5, how should Black play? I think the best is 8...a6 9. Be2 f5! Since Black can't play against the d-pawn with Nc6, he should play against the e-pawn. This is also possible after 8. Be2, but it does not offer Black as much play as the Nc6 line. If you look at Svidler's games he seems to agree: he always plays the Nc6 line but against Bb5 he switches to f5. Since ...a6 does not make much difference in that position, it's clear to me that Black has made a concession. In fact I suspect Svidler knows this is bad for Black, but doesn't say so in order that his opponents keep playing 8. Nf3 and 8. Be2.

If only it was so easy to "just play chess"!

You have to play the Russian sysytem: 5.Qb3. It is White to play and win. Good luck!

RoundTower, that's a great post! Thank you .

I didn't mean to imply the position after 7... 0-0 is simple by any means. However, it's way less theoretical than the Grunfeld main lines, and at club level black usually doesn't know it too well. So at my level, I am comfortable to just play into it.

I do play 6. Bg5.
After 6. Bg5 Bg7 7. e3 c5 8. dxc5 Qxd1+ 9. Nxd1.



9... Na4 10. Rc1. Black doesn't really want to take at b2 now, but winning back c5 isn't so easy. 10... Nd7 11. Bb5 for example.

9... N6d7 10. Rc1 Na6 11. Bxa6 bxa6 12. Nf3 and I think white does fine; 0-0 and b4 will come.

Black can also play 8... Bxc3+ 9. bxc3 Qxd1+ 10. Rxd1 N6d7 (Na4? 11. Bb5+ Bd7 12. Rxd7). He will win back c5 and whites structure is weakened, but white has two bishops to compensate. Here, I will comment you can just play chess again, and RoundTower will reply with a nice line pointing out that's not exactly true .

(Disclaimer: this is mostly my own analysis, I don't know if theory agrees).

I loved playing against the Russian system when I was still playing the grunfeld. They're some of the most fun positions in chess. The problem was that I never once played a single main line of anything in the grunfeld in an actual tournament game, so I quit.

I never looked at 5...Nb6, I agree you can just play chess in that position but more importantly I think White is a little better (the bishop pair is very strong) so 5...Bg7 must be critical.

The Russian system positions are definitely interesting but depressing for Black to look at with a computer, it will keep saying White is better. Airwave, did you play the main lines with ...a6 and ...b5? I mostly avoided them following Rowson's recommendation that they "looked too artificial" but actually I think they are probably best and I need to start playing them.

Yeah that's what I always planned to play but ended up only getting like 3 blitz games with the Russian system where in my games white usually played an early Bf4 and black gambits the c pawn. It was a fruitless life playing the grunfeld.

Yes everyone and their dog played the Bf4 lines against the Grünfeld when I was trying to play it. And if someone goes for the main lines they are guaranteed to be booked up better than you

Yeah I saw a ton of 4. Bf4 too

The Grünfeld is completely sound and cannot be refuted even by computers. Therefore every equal line is just as good. When I know that my opponent is a specialist, I usually open with 1.Nf3 followed by 2.c4 which usually leads to an anti-Grünfeld-system which isn't especially promising either, but avoids dynamic play in the center.

The downside of the Grünfeld is that there are many sharp/forced draws. That's why I usually don't play it against weaker opponents. Preparing one of these lines might be a good solution also.

Hi all! I've been thinking a lot recently about differences between 1. Nf3 and 1. d4, and it occurred to me that learning to tackle the Indians is probably a lesser evil for White than playing KIA/Catalan with a small edge. The problem is that of course that it's much easier to be outprepared in the Indians.

One approach that works best vs a someone who's known to choose the Grünfeld (or KID) vs 1. d4 2. c4 that has caught my eye is the Alekhine Anti-Grünfeld - 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. f3. (I'm not sure if I'm ready to play 1. d4 2. c4 vs a specialist in Queen's/Bogo Indian.)

Its most known appearance was in the third game of the 2012 championship match between Anand (White) and Gelfand, where Boris played 3... d5 and, by doing so, allowed the clear main idea of the variation to work - after 4. cxd5 Nxd5, there's no knight on c3 to be captured, so it's an improved version of the Exchange Grünfeld.

Back in 2010, RoundTower referred to this variation as an annoyance for a Grünfeld specialist:

In 2013, a book 'The Ultimate Anti-Grünfeld – A Sämisch Repertoire' was released by GM Dmitry Svetushkin.

I don't know any videos dedicated to the variation, apart from coverage of the above Anand-Gelfand game.

Of course, Black isn't obliged to reply 3... d5. It seems that 3... Bg7 and 3... c5 don't require additional prep because they just transpose to normal Sämisch KID/Benoni lines. Even in the Benko gambit, White looks fine with a huge centre after 3... c5 4. d5 b5 5. cxb5 a6 6. e4 axb5?! 7. e5 Nh5 8. f4, as in Palencia vs Lopez Grana (2006).

Black's critical response is 3... e5 aka the Leko Gambit. The game typically proceeds: 4. dxe5 Nh5 5. Nh3 Nc6 (with a Ng1-h3-f2 manoeuvre that is a reversed copy of what Black does in the Basman System of the Leningrad Dutch) and here it's bad for White to hold on to the e5 pawn because Black can play Qh4+ at some point.

Stockfish prefers 6. Nc3 f5 7. f4 Nc6 8. g3 d6 9. Bg2 Bg7 10. O-O O-O, arriving at a curious position where the pawn structure for both sides is like Black's in the Leningrad (hence this discussion, to an extent, continues the Bird thread):



The difference in king's knights' placement alone earns White a +0.4 edge. That looks like fun, especially because I want to try out the Basman Leningrad (Ng8-h6-f7) with Black as well

Let me know what you think on this Anti-Grünfeld (scoring the same 58% of points in databases as 3. g3, fwiw). Do you find it an easy 'profitable' way out of Black's book? Thanks!