Quote:
Originally Posted by EGarrett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyMrK...ailpage#t=770s
Just for fun, I'm running Houdini 1.5a alongside this demonstration, and at this point, there was a wild disagreement between them. Which is interesting because apparently the Tablebase is the equivalent of God, and Houdini thinks its moves are massive blunders, but it's hard to see why because the tablebase demonstration doesn't include the refutations of Houdini's preferred moves.
Here's what Houdini thinks after a few minutes..
The tablebase then shows white's next optimal move as Be7.
Houdini drops the evaluation by a full 10 points to 0.55 for white and recommends Bxc3 for black.
The tablebase shows the optimal move for black as Re1.
When shown ...Re1, Houdini flips out and goes to 99.9...which to my understanding means a forced mate for White.
So...what's going on here? It's a bit hard for me to even know what I'm asking, as I have so little experience with all of these things...but I'm scratching my head about something.
I triple-checked to make sure I had the initial position correct between the two sources, so assuming I did...
1.) How can Houdini and the Tablebase differ by more than 10 points (!), in other words a full Queen's worth of value, in their evaluation? I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Houdini just said "What are you doing you idiot, you hung your queen" and the Tablebase said "No actually, I won."
2.) Is this common?
3.) Is it known that the super-engines by themselves can be this inaccurate in the endgame?
4.) Is there a way to get a hint at the refutation of Houdini's preferred ...Bxc3 that the tablebase apparently sees but Houdini is totally unaware of?
*head explode*
1 something is wrong with the installation of houdini and the tablebase on your pc
2 yes its common to get rubbish out if the programs are not set up properly
3 yes, a program may say +24 when actually its a mate in 45 :-)
4 From the starting position nb5 leads to a mate in about 16 and be7,bg5,bg3,bd1 lead to a mate in about 20
FEN: 8/8/8/4b3/7B/2N2K2/2R5/r4k2 w - - 1 1
Houdini_15a_x64:
4/14 00:00 1,223 1,223,000 +0.69 Rc2-f2+ Kf1-g1 Rf2-g2+ Kg1-h1 Nc3-b5
5/17 00:00 4,641 928,000 +0.59 Rc2-f2+ Kf1-g1 Nc3-e2+ Kg1-h1 Kf3-e4 Ra1-a5 Rf2-f1+ Kh1-g2 Rf1-g1+ Kg2-h3
5/17 00:00 5,966 662,000 +0.77 Nc3-d5 Be5-d4 Kf3-e4 Ra1-d1 Bh4-g3
6/17 00:00 7,745 595,000 +0.73 Nc3-d5 Be5-d4 Bh4-g3 Ra1-a3+ Kf3-g4 Ra3-a8
7/17 00:00 9,085 534,000 +0.68 Nc3-d5 Be5-d4 Bh4-g3 Ra1-a3+ Kf3-g4 Ra3-a5 Rc2-c1+ Kf1-e2
8/17+ 00:00 16,277 739,000 +0.75 Nc3-d5
8/17 00:00 17,198 661,000 +0.78 Nc3-d5 Be5-d4 Rc2-c4 Ra1-d1 Kf3-e4 Bd4-a7 Rc4-c3 Kf1-g2 Nd5-f4+ Kg2-f1
9/17 00:00 21,484 671,000 +0.78 Nc3-d5 Be5-d4 Rc2-c4 Ra1-d1 Kf3-e4 Bd4-a7 Rc4-c3 Kf1-g2 Nd5-f4+ Kg2-f1
9/23 00:00 82,466 1,555,000 +0.81 Nc3-e4 Ra1-a3+ Kf3-g4 Ra3-a4 Kg4-f5 Be5-g7 Bh4-f2 Ra4-a5+ Kf5-g4 Ra5-a4 Kg4-f5 Ra4-a5+
10/23 00:00 96,451 1,461,000 +0.84 Nc3-e4 Ra1-a3+ Kf3-g4 Ra3-a4 Kg4-f5 Be5-g7 Bh4-f2 Ra4-a5+ Bf2-c5 Ra5-a4 Rc2-f2+ Kf1-e1 Bc5-e3 Ra4-a5+ Kf5-g4
11/26- 00:00 159,178 1,749,000 +0.77 Nc3-e4 Ra1-a3+
11/26 00:00 203,215 1,814,000 +0.84 Nc3-d5 Be5-d4 Rc2-c4 Ra1-a3+ Kf3-e4 Bd4-a7 Bh4-f6 Ra3-a2 Nd5-f4 Kf1-f2 Bf6-h4+ Kf2-g1 Bh4-e1
11/26+ 00:00 265,403 1,995,000 +0.90 Nc3-b5
11/26+ 00:00 275,601 1,968,000 +1.04 Nc3-b5
11/26 00:00 333,468 2,084,000 +1.20 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-e2 Be5-h2 Re2-e6 Ra1-d1 Re6-g6 Rd1-d8 Bf2-c5 Rd8-d5
12/26 00:00 363,883 2,103,000 +1.15 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c4 Be5-h2 Rc4-h4 Ra1-a5 Rh4-h5 Ra5-a8 Bf2-g3 Ra8-f8+ Kf3-e4 Rf8-e8+ Ke4-d4
13/26 00:00 422,324 2,154,000 +1.17 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c4 Be5-h2 Rc4-h4 Ra1-a8 Bf2-g3 Ra8-f8+ Kf3-e4 Rf8-e8+ Ke4-d5 Re8-d8+ Nb5-d6
14/26+ 00:00 515,023 2,299,000 +1.26 Nc3-b5
14/26 00:00 532,847 2,277,000 +1.17 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c4 Be5-h2 Rc4-h4 Ra1-b1 Nb5-d4 Rb1-b7 Bf2-g3 Rb7-f7+ Kf3-e4 Rf7-e7+ Ke4-d3
15/26 00:00 703,073 2,502,000 +1.24 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c4 Be5-h2 Rc4-h4 Ra1-a5 Rh4-b4 Bh2-e5 Bf2-c5 Ra5-a1 Rb4-h4+ Be5-h2 Nb5-c3 Ra1-a5 Rh4-h5
16/28+ 00:00 920,780 2,700,000 +1.33 Nc3-b5
16/28+ 00:00 1,033,157 2,769,000 +1.50 Nc3-b5
16/36+ 00:00 1,207,714 2,896,000 +1.91 Nc3-b5
16/37 00:01 1,956,106 2,661,000 +1.27 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c4 Ra1-d1 Rc4-c5 Be5-h2 Nb5-d4 Rd1-d3+ Bf2-e3 Rd3-d1 Rc5-g5 Rd1-f1+ Be3-f2 Rf1-d1 Nd4-e6 Rd1-a1 Bf2-d4 Ra1-a3+ Kf3-e4 Bh2-d6 Rg5-g1+ Kh1-h2
17/37+ 00:01 2,275,012 2,791,000 +1.36 Nc3-b5
17/37+ 00:01 2,338,013 2,800,000 +1.54 Nc3-b5
17/43+ 00:01 3,520,345 3,115,000 +5.92 Nc3-b5
17/43 00:01 4,418,699 3,280,000 +6.33 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-h2 Nb5-d4 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3xe3+ Kf3xe3 Bh2-g1+ Ke3-e4 Kh1-g2 Rc5-c2+ Kg2-h3 Nd4-e6 Kh3-h4 Rc2-g2 Bg1-a7 Ne6-f4 Ba7-b8 Ke4-f3 Bb8xf4 Kf3xf4 Kh4-h5 Kf4-e5 Kh5-h4
18/43+ 00:02 6,231,563 3,473,000 +6.60 Nc3-b5
18/43 00:03 10,135,576 3,663,000 +6.88 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-b8 Rc5-h5+ Bb8-h2 Nb5-c3 Ra1-a3 Bf2-d4 Ra3-a8 Bd4-e5 Ra8-f8+ Kf3-e3 Rf8-f2 Nc3-e4 Rf2-a2 Ne4-d2 Ra2-a3+ Ke3-f2 Ra3-h3 Rh5-g5 Rh3-h4 Nd2-f3 Rh4-a4 Be5xh2 Ra4-g4 Rg5-h5 Rg4-g5 Rh5-h7 Rg5-g2+ Kf2-e3
19/43 00:03 11,308,726 3,690,000 +6.84 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-b8 Rc5-h5+ Bb8-h2 Nb5-c3 Ra1-a3 Bf2-d4 Ra3-a8 Bd4-e5 Ra8-f8+ Kf3-e3 Rf8-f2 Nc3-e4 Rf2-a2 Ne4-d2 Ra2-a3+ Ke3-f2 Ra3-h3 Rh5-g5 Rh3-h4 Nd2-f3 Rh4-a4 Be5xh2 Ra4-g4 Rg5-h5 Rg4-g5 Rh5-h6 Rg5-g6 Rh6-h7
20/46 00:04 16,252,955 3,831,000 +6.92 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-b8 Rc5-h5+ Bb8-h2 Nb5-c3 Ra1-a8 Bf2-g3 Ra8-f8+ Kf3-e4 Rf8-e8+ Ke4-d4 Kh1-g2 Bg3xh2 Kg2-f3 Bh2-e5 Kf3-g4 Rh5-h1 Kg4-f3 Rh1-h3+ Kf3-g4 Rh3-g3+ Kg4-f5 Nc3-d5 Re8-a8 Nd5-e3+ Kf5-e6 Rg3-g6+ Ke6-f7 Rg6-f6+ Kf7-g8 Kd4-e4
21/46 00:05 21,954,164 3,900,000 +6.94 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-b8 Rc5-h5+ Bb8-h2 Nb5-c3 Ra1-a8 Bf2-g3 Ra8-f8+ Kf3-e4 Rf8-e8+ Ke4-d4 Kh1-g2 Bg3xh2 Kg2-f3 Bh2-e5 Re8-d8+ Nc3-d5 Kf3-g4 Rh5-h7 Kg4-f3 Rh7-f7+ Kf3-e2 Kd4-e4 Rd8-e8 Nd5-c7 Re8-g8 Nc7-e6 Rg8-e8 Ke4-d5 Re8-a8
22/46 00:06 25,417,343 3,952,000 +6.94 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-b8 Rc5-h5+ Bb8-h2 Nb5-c3 Ra1-a8 Bf2-g3 Ra8-f8+ Kf3-e4 Rf8-e8+ Ke4-d4 Kh1-g2 Bg3xh2 Kg2-f3 Bh2-e5 Re8-d8+ Nc3-d5 Kf3-g4 Rh5-h7 Kg4-f3 Rh7-f7+ Kf3-e2 Kd4-e4 Rd8-e8 Rf7-h7 Ke2-f2 Rh7-h1 Kf2-g2 Rh1-h5 Kg2-g1 Rh5-h3 Kg1-f2 Rh3-b3 Kf2-e2 Rb3-c3 Ke2-d2 Rc3-b3 Kd2-e2 Rb3-c3
23/46 00:08 31,237,091 4,048,000 +6.94 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-b8 Rc5-h5+ Bb8-h2 Nb5-c3 Ra1-a8 Bf2-g3 Ra8-f8+ Kf3-e4 Rf8-e8+ Ke4-d4 Kh1-g2 Bg3xh2 Kg2-f3 Bh2-e5 Re8-d8+ Nc3-d5 Kf3-g4 Rh5-h7 Kg4-f3 Rh7-f7+ Kf3-e2 Kd4-e4 Rd8-e8 Rf7-h7 Ke2-f2 Rh7-h1 Kf2-g2 Rh1-h5 Kg2-g1 Rh5-h3 Kg1-f2 Rh3-b3 Kf2-e2 Rb3-c3 Ke2-d2 Rc3-b3 Kd2-e2 Rb3-c3
24/49+ 00:16 71,264,990 4,376,000 +7.23 Nc3-b5
24/57+ 00:20 86,063,808 4,365,000 +7.81 Nc3-b5
24/69+ 00:36 162,057,080 4,524,000 +14.13 Nc3-b5
24/69 00:52 287,138,447 5,500,000 +M25 Nc3-b5 Be5-h8 Bh4-f2 Bh8-f6 Bf2-e3 Kf1-e1 Nb5-a3 Bf6-d4 Na3-c4 Ke1-d1 Rc2-d2+ Kd1-c1 Be3xd4 Ra1-a4 Bd4-b2+ Kc1-b1 Nc4-e3 Ra4-a7 Ne3-d5 Ra7-f7+ Kf3-e4 Kb1-a2 Bb2-c1+ Ka2-b3 Rd2-b2+ Kb3-a4 Bc1-d2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b1 Ka3-a4 Rb1-b4+ Ka4-a5 Rb4-b7+ Ka5-a4 Rb7xf7 Ka4-b5 Rf7-a7 Kb5-c4 Ra7-b7 Kc4-c5 Rb7-c7+ Kc5-b5 Rc7-c2 Kb5-a4 Rc2-b2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b5 Ka3-a2 Nd5-c3+ Ka2-a3 Bd2-c1+
25/69 00:56 318,337,121 5,648,000 +M25 Nc3-b5 Be5-h8 Bh4-f2 Bh8-f6 Bf2-e3 Kf1-e1 Nb5-a3 Bf6-d4 Na3-c4 Ke1-d1 Rc2-d2+ Kd1-c1 Be3xd4 Ra1-a4 Bd4-b2+ Kc1-b1 Nc4-e3 Ra4-a7 Ne3-d5 Ra7-f7+ Kf3-e4 Kb1-a2 Bb2-c1+ Ka2-b3 Rd2-b2+ Kb3-a4 Bc1-d2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b1 Ka3-a4 Rb1-b4+ Ka4-a5 Rb4-b7+ Ka5-a4 Rb7xf7 Ka4-b5 Rf7-b7+ Kb5-c6 Rb7-c7+ Kc6-b5 Rc7-c2 Kb5-a4 Rc2-b2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b5 Ka3-a2 Nd5-c3+ Ka2-a3 Bd2-c1+
26/69 01:00 345,142,683 5,747,000 +M25 Nc3-b5 Be5-h8 Bh4-f2 Bh8-f6 Bf2-e3 Kf1-e1 Nb5-a3 Bf6-d4 Na3-c4 Ke1-d1 Rc2-d2+ Kd1-c1 Be3xd4 Ra1-a4 Bd4-b2+ Kc1-b1 Nc4-e3 Ra4-a7 Ne3-d5 Ra7-f7+ Kf3-e4 Kb1-a2 Bb2-c1+ Ka2-b3 Rd2-b2+ Kb3-a4 Bc1-d2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b1 Ka3-a4 Rb1-b4+ Ka4-a5 Rb4-b7+ Ka5-a4 Rb7xf7 Ka4-b5 Rf7-b7+ Kb5-c6 Rb7-c7+ Kc6-b5 Rc7-c2 Kb5-a4 Rc2-b2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b5 Ka3-a2 Nd5-c3+ Ka2-a3 Bd2-c1+
27/69 01:08 402,176,515 5,940,000 +M25 Nc3-b5 Be5-h8 Bh4-f2 Bh8-f6 Bf2-e3 Kf1-e1 Nb5-a3 Bf6-d4 Na3-c4 Ke1-d1 Rc2-d2+ Kd1-c1 Be3xd4 Ra1-a4 Bd4-b2+ Kc1-b1 Nc4-e3 Ra4-a7 Ne3-d5 Ra7-f7+ Kf3-e4 Kb1-a2 Bb2-c1+ Ka2-b3 Rd2-b2+ Kb3-a4 Bc1-d2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b1 Ka3-a4 Rb1-b4+ Ka4-a5 Rb4-b7+ Ka5-a4 Rb7xf7 Ka4-b5 Rf7-b7+ Kb5-c6 Rb7-c7+ Kc6-b5 Rc7-c2 Kb5-a4 Rc2-b2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b5 Ka3-a2 Nd5-c3+ Ka2-a3 Bd2-c1+
28/69 01:19 488,219,176 6,130,000 +M25 Nc3-b5 Be5-h8 Bh4-f2 Bh8-f6 Bf2-e3 Kf1-e1 Nb5-a3 Bf6-d4 Na3-c4 Ke1-d1 Rc2-d2+ Kd1-c1 Be3xd4 Ra1-a4 Bd4-b2+ Kc1-b1 Nc4-e3 Ra4-a7 Ne3-d5 Ra7-f7+ Kf3-e4 Kb1-a2 Bb2-c1+ Ka2-b3 Rd2-b2+ Kb3-a4 Bc1-d2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b1 Ka3-a4 Rb1-b4+ Ka4-a5 Rb4-b7+ Ka5-a4 Rb7xf7 Ka4-b5 Rf7-b7+ Kb5-c6 Rb7-c7+ Kc6-b5 Rc7-c2 Kb5-a4 Rc2-b2 Ka4-a3 Rb2-b5 Ka3-a2 Nd5-c3+ Ka2-a3 Bd2-c1+
29/69 02:46 1,112,547,583 6,683,000 +M18 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-h2 Nb5-d4 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3-a1 Nd4-e2 Ra1-f1+ Be3-f2 Rf1-a1 Rc5-h5 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3xe3+ Kf3xe3 Kh1-g2 Rh5-h4 Bh2-e5 Rh4-g4+ Kg2-h3 Ke3-f3 Be5-h2 Ne2-f4+ Bh2xf4 Rg4xf4 Kh3-h2 Rf4-h4+ Kh2-g1 Rh4-h5 Kg1-f1 Rh5-h1+
30/69 03:00 1,210,441,859 6,720,000 +M18 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-h2 Nb5-d4 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3-a1 Nd4-e2 Ra1-f1+ Be3-f2 Rf1-a1 Rc5-h5 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3xe3+ Kf3xe3 Kh1-g2 Ne2-f4+ Kg2-g3 Rh5-g5+ Kg3-h4 Rg5-g6 Bh2-g3 Ke3-f3 Bg3xf4 Kf3xf4 Kh4-h3 Rg6-g5 Kh3-h2 Kf4-f3 Kh2-h1 Rg5-h5+ Kh1-g1 Rh5-h4 Kg1-f1 Rh4-h1+
31/69 03:43 1,522,422,827 6,815,000 +M18 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-h2 Nb5-d4 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3-a1 Nd4-e2 Ra1-f1+ Be3-f2 Rf1-a1 Rc5-h5 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3xe3+ Kf3xe3 Kh1-g2 Rh5-h4 Bh2-e5 Rh4-g4+ Kg2-h3 Ke3-f3 Be5-h2 Ne2-f4+ Bh2xf4 Rg4xf4 Kh3-h2 Rf4-h4+ Kh2-g1 Rh4-h5 Kg1-f1 Rh5-h1+
32/69 05:29 2,285,337,609 6,934,000 +M16 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-h2 Rc5-d5 Bh2-g1 Rd5-h5+ Bg1-h2 Nb5-d6 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3xe3+ Kf3xe3 Kh1-g2 Rh5-g5+ Kg2-h3 Nd6-e4 Kh3-h4 Ke3-f3 Bh2-d6 Rg5-f5 Bd6-e7 Ne4-g3 Be7-g5 Rf5-e5 Kh4-h3 Re5-e1 Bg5-d8 Re1-h1+
33/69 07:10 3,025,462,769 7,034,000 +M16 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-h2 Rc5-d5 Bh2-g1 Rd5-h5+ Bg1-h2 Nb5-d6 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3xe3+ Kf3xe3 Kh1-g2 Rh5-g5+ Kg2-h3 Nd6-e4 Kh3-h4 Ke3-f3 Bh2-d6 Rg5-g4+ Kh4-h5 Ne4xd6 Kh5-h6 Nd6-e4 Kh6-h7 Kf3-f4 Kh7-h6 Kf4-f5 Kh6-h7 Ne4-f6+ Kh7-h6 Rg4-g6+
34/69 10:45 4,638,997,140 7,191,000 +M16 Nc3-b5 Kf1-g1 Bh4-f2+ Kg1-h1 Rc2-c5 Be5-h2 Rc5-d5 Bh2-g1 Rd5-h5+ Bg1-h2 Nb5-d6 Ra1-a3+ Bf2-e3 Ra3xe3+ Kf3xe3 Kh1-g2 Rh5-g5+ Kg2-h3 Nd6-e4 Kh3-h4 Ke3-f3 Bh2-d6 Rg5-d5 Bd6-e7 Ne4-g3 Be7-g5 Rd5-e5 Kh4-h3 Re5-e1 Bg5-d8 Re1-h1+