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***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** ***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread ***

08-27-2011 , 07:52 PM
This was such an awesome idea from AllenC, and the mods approved, so I'll get this party started.

Posted this game in BBV, but I thought this position was really interesting and instructive.



Black to play has (I'm pretty sure) only one decisively winning line.

Answer with explanation:

Spoiler:
It's easy to bang your head against a wall trying to find a decisive checking combination that ends in mate or winning major material. In order to solve this, you have to find the right plan which involves:

1) Finding the right weak spot to attack.
2) Finding the right way to attack it.

Ultimately, the right weak spot is the the pawn on g2, and the right way to attack it is with the right piece coordination. There's a huge difference between a piece that is attacked by the queen first and the rook secondarily, vs. the other way around. And there's a huge difference between a piece that is defended by the king first and the queen secondarily vs. the other way around.

Getting there involves a fair bit of calculation.

1. ... Qh2+ forces 2. Kf2, the only legal move.

Now white's weakness on g2 is clear. It's "protected" twice, but since the first one is the king, it's vulnerable to a double attack. So now black must have the patience to play a move that isn't a check:

2. ... Rg6! Black threatens to attack that weakness in the optimal setup: Rook leads, queen supports, while white is trying to defend it with the worst setup, king first.

White's only move now is Ke1 (Qf3 loses the major exchange to Rf6, as does Rg1 after Qg3+/Kf1 Rf6+ and the queen is forced to step in the way).

3. Ke1 Rxg2

Black takes the pawn and threatens all kinds of seventh rank hijinks, but he gives up the initiative. If you are going to give up the initiative in a Q and R endgame, you better be really sure you can't lose because of it. Now it's white's turn to threaten bad things. Amazingly, white has no way to directly attack black's back rank weakness. His only threatening square is Qf3, threatening Qxf7+ and Qf8#.

4. Qf3

Black has to prevent the immediate mate threat, and also not allow white any other major progresses. h6 creates a luft square, but allows white to equalize by taking the pawn with Qxf7+, then threatening a perpetual with Qf5+. Black must block the check with Rg6 and he's gained nothing, and now white would have a clearly superior position. h5 is a little better, but still needlessly gives up a pawn and allows white a solid attack.

f6 prevents Qxf7+, but white gets several clear lines with which to check. But ultimately, black escapes with


4. ... f6
5. Qd5+ (or Qa8+ leads to the same thing eventually) Kf8
6. Qd8+ Kf7
7. Qd5+ Kg6
8. Qf5+ Kh6

and now white is out of safe checks and black is about to maraud him on the seventh rank and can force a trade of queens if he ever wants to. White's best possibility now is to play Rf2, allowing the trade of all remaining heavy pieces. Black enters a 6v5 king and pawn endgame with connected outside passers, and should win trivially. (Another option, which a computer will like less but might have more practical chances, is what white played in the game: Qf4+, which keeps the rooks on the board but leaves white just as lost down two pawns and having the less active rook).

I just thought that was a fascinating position. It shows a lot of key maneuvers in R+Q v R+Q endgames, as well as the need for raw, ruthless calculation in both seizing the initiative and knowing when you can afford to give it up.

***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
08-27-2011 , 09:07 PM
fwiw, 2...Qh4+ 3.Kg1 Qh1+ 4.Kf2 Rf6+ 5.Ke1 Rxf1+ 6.Qxf1 Qxf1+ 7.Kxf1 f5 should be a winning pawn ending, since Black gets the outside passed pawn

but obviously your line is nicer and a clearer win
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
08-27-2011 , 09:56 PM
thanks for the OP, apreciate it. I will post a lot of non tactical positions btw

ps:
Spoiler:
in move 4 white has to prevent the mate threat not black

Last edited by valenzuela; 08-27-2011 at 10:08 PM.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
08-29-2011 , 11:46 PM
As I see it, the problem with this thread is the OP: it's just too good and instructive! People are afraid to post without writing up a thesis. I'll lower the bar by posting a position and letting someone else figure it out.

I got a great position against a master strength player in a Chess with Friends game and decided to cash it in for the following position, having just queened with check:



Amazingly, black's incredible activity and dark square power give him excellent practical chances. What's your defensive plan?

A few moves prior...



White plays a7? thinking a queen is a queen is a queen and lazily not wanting to deal with the discovery after Bxd4...Qxd4. Of course it's easily defended against and if Black later blocks with Qa7 his position is just hopeless.

Spoiler:
The game ended (from the top position) 1.Qh6 Qd4 2.Rf1 e6 3.fe Rxe6 4.Kh1 Ne4 5.Be8? (Iphone Shredder can't decide on a move but seems to think White is better before this)


giving up the bishop for a tempo

...Ng6+ 6.Kh2 Nxf1 7.Qxf1 Qe5+ 8.g6 Qxg6+ 9.Kh1 Re8? (taking on e8 must give Black an edge but he was happy to get out alive) 10.Qb2+ f6 11.Qxf6 Kh6 1/2-1/2 with a perpetual.

Last edited by Allen C; 08-30-2011 at 12:13 AM.
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08-30-2011 , 06:19 AM
Spoiler:
The Qa8 and Ra1 are not participating so we need to get them back in the game. Once we manage to consolidate the game is over (should take like 5 moves from here?). Dark square control should automatically improve while doing this (too bad the other Q is not on c1, Qf8+ would work then). I'd start with 1.Qa6 or 1.Re1; gotta make sure there is no nasty surprises lurking somewhere, but something like 1.Qa6 Bc7 2.g3 e3 3.Re1 should win soon enough.
Summarizing,
What White wants to do:
- trade pieces
- activate the major pieces currently on the a-file
- consolidate
- get the dark squares under control
What Black wants to do:
- act quite fast
- get in a cheap shot
- create threats on the b8-h2 and a7-g1 diagonals
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
08-31-2011 , 09:52 AM


I've been playing over all of Fischer's games as white on chessgames.com (why? I dunno, just because). It's been a blast.

White played Bh4-g3, and black responded with e5-e4. The resulting tactic shouldn't be that hard to see, but I just found it beautiful. What an amazing example of piece coordination.

This is from Fischer-Weinstein at the 1960 US Championship in New York.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
08-31-2011 , 10:27 AM
Spoiler:
Qxh6 Re8 Qxe6
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
08-31-2011 , 03:35 PM
i'm so proud of myself for finding that move, that's a really pretty one too

i think i just gained 50 ELO
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
08-31-2011 , 06:22 PM
Calculation is *hard*.

This position came up in my latest game:


I wanted to play something simple like Bd7. But I was worried about Qh7+ Kf8/Bxh6 gxh6/Rxh6, which would leave us with this position:



Black's best move is ....

Spoiler:
Re2! Seriously? I almost couldn't believe the computer when it suggested that.

If white takes the queen, or even if he trades them off and then wins a rook with Qh8+, black's remaining pieces come up with a stunning forced mate.

1. ... Re2
2. Rxf6 Ne3+
3. Kf3 (forced, only other legal moves lead to Re1#) Bg4+
4. Ke4 (only legal move) Nxc2+
5. Kd3 (only legal move) Ne1#

When I saw that, I was all ...



Who here has the cojones to say they could have calculated *that* from the position above? (Some of you probably could, I know. I love and hate you at the same time).
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
08-31-2011 , 07:59 PM
Spoiler:
wow, that's beautiful.

In the second diagram, I think the Bc8 should be on d7
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-01-2011 , 03:10 AM
Spoiler:
Aren't you in dire straits anyways? The position looks a lot like a Marshall Attack where somehow white ended up with the attack. After Bd7, i want to make a Rxh6 sacrifice work, maybe with 2. h4 so that at the end of the 3. Qh7+ Kf8 4. Rxh6 gxh6 5. Bxh6+ Ke7 sequence we have 6. Bg5, winning the Q. To me it's not at all obvious how black defends against that.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-01-2011 , 07:39 AM
Spoiler:
Yes to dire straits, yes to Marshall Attack where white ended up with the attack, yes black has some awkward defensive work ahead of him and yes to not being able to find it
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 02:17 PM


Here's a position I think is very instructive, except I don't have the answer. White to move, and what I want to know here is threefold:

1) Who is better?
2) Who benefits if rooks are traded?
3) If it's black, is giving up the file still bad enough that white has to trade?
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 02:21 PM
My best guess:

Spoiler:
White should make the trade. He'll enter a bad v. good bishop scenario, but his potentially outside passed pawn and his queen's access to b6 should be decisive.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleJRM82


Here's a position I think is very instructive, except I don't have the answer. White to move, and what I want to know here is threefold:

1) Who is better?
2) Who benefits if rooks are traded?
3) If it's black, is giving up the file still bad enough that white has to trade?
I'd say Black is definitely better after ...Rxf1. If, however, it were White to move in that position then I like White because of the blockade on e5, weaker Black pawns in general and maybe a weaker Black king (not sure about that). I think it's actually better that White has some pawns on dark squares as they'll be easier to protect from Queen raids.

The above mostly assumes a Rook trade. After Re1 Bg5 might be annoying as 2.Qe2 loses g3 and the queenside, 2.Qb6 might be too dangerous and I'm not sure what's happening with 2.Qd4. It would take a lot of calculating. Black could also try ...Bf6, a Bishop trade, Rf6, and Qf7 but that might not work out either if White plays Bd6 -- but then maybe Black gets in ...e5. I'm going with the trade unless I study it all day in correspondence.

Edit: Just read Kyle's spoiler (maybe I should have done that as well?) and we're on the same page with Qb6 but I wouldn't even call White's bishop bad with the Queens on the board and where's the outside passed pawn?

Last edited by Allen C; 09-06-2011 at 04:43 PM. Reason: read the next post
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 04:52 PM
Spoiler:
The fact that white has a bunch of pawns on dark squares does not make white's bishop bad in itself.. There is an important distinction as to whether the bishop is "inside of the chain" or "outside" of it.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 04:54 PM
I think we're pretty much seeing the same things here. That could be good or bad

In the game:

Spoiler:
I was black, he declined the trade with Re1. It went:

1. Re1 Bg5
2. Qe2 Bh4

White should play g3 here and he didn't, instead playing...

3. Rf1

And now I think it's flipped and it's better for black to trade the rooks, because his queen is going to be the one with slightly quicker access to some key squares to attack the king and weak pawns.

3. ... Rxf1
4. Qxf1 =+ imo

Unfortunately, I made a move that I regretted almost immediately

4. ... Bg3
5. Bxg3 Qxg3

I was thinking that my queen on g3 would be in good position to try to win the Q+Ps endgame. Maybe not a sure win, but no real losing chances unless I blundered. But I almost immediately realized that trading bishops made it the drawiest draw that ever drawed. He got his queen to b6 and I perpetualed his king, gg.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Spoiler:
The fact that white has a bunch of pawns on dark squares does not make white's bishop bad in itself.. There is an important distinction as to whether the bishop is "inside of the chain" or "outside" of it.
Spoiler:
I think every book I read has a different set of definitions for making the distinction between a bishop that is on the same color as central pawns (traditionally called bad) and a bishop that is not good in the position. The phrase "Many times, a bad bishop is good" encapsulates everything that is frustrating about chess books.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen C
and where's the outside passed pawn?
Potentially outside passed pawn, i.e. the pawn majority on g2 and h3 that can produce a passed pawn on the h file.

I've been burned a few times thinking "I already have a passed pawn, his majority is merely a potential passed pawn, so who cares if it's outside" and traded down into a lost king and pawn endgame.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 05:02 PM
Spoiler:
if anything white should be better because of his safer king and greater activity. I would expect it to be drawn though.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 05:03 PM
I guess White is a little better due to the fact that his B is occupying the h2-b8 diagonal making the king safe enough to go 1.Rxf8+ Bxf8 2.Qb6 with some initiative. Not much after 2.-Qf7 though, intending Qd7 and Kf7 (and if 3.Bc7 then Kh7 to indirectly protect b7)

So my quick answers to the questions:
1) White but very marginally
2) No one in particular, that's just how it goes when there is one open file
3) ha i get to skip this one

Last edited by smilingbill; 09-06-2011 at 05:04 PM. Reason: slow pony, longer expression though
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleJRM82
Potentially outside passed pawn, i.e. the pawn majority on g2 and h3 that can produce a passed pawn on the h file.

I've been burned a few times thinking "I already have a passed pawn, his majority is merely a potential passed pawn, so who cares if it's outside" and traded down into a lost king and pawn endgame.
Yes, it just doesn't seem very "outside" when the entire party is on the kingside. If all the pieces disappeared I don't think that kingside majority would help more than Black's protected passed pawn. And you're certainly not pushing those pawns with everyone still on the board.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-06-2011 , 07:38 PM
Yeah, honestly I don't think there's much going on in this position. The plan of Rd1-d4-g4 doesn't seem to work, so White has nothing better than changing rooks. Then Qb6 Qf7, White has Black pinned down but there's no obvious way to make progress.

If White could somehow get the pawns to g5 and h4 and exchange Queens there might be some chances, but I doubt this is possible with best play by Black.
***Chess - Instructive Positions Thread *** Quote
09-07-2011 , 09:19 PM
Why can't White play Rd1 intending b3 and c4? Re1 seems sort of silly to me because White's bishop is ideally placed on e5.
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09-12-2011 , 12:03 PM
So with the help of Mastering Chess Openings, I'm trying to understand closed games better rather than just hating on them because I don't understand them. It's been fun so far, but the results have been mixed. This game started out as a closed Ruy Lopez when I made a mistake, but he took advantage of it in the wrong way and we ended up in this interesting position:



Unfortunately, he disconnected at this point and that was that, I would have loved to play it out. After gxf6 and we both retreat our bishop (probably to h4 and b7), black's up a pawn but white's got so much compensation, mostly in the forms of weaknesses to attack and strong pieces.



The rook is dominating the e-file for the forseeable future. The bishop can go to c2 and be a strong piece. Black's dark bishop, meanwhile, is miserable. White's knight may be able to create some serious havoc on the weak f5 square.

For targets, white has the exposed black king and weak pawns on c7, f7, f6 and a7. Black has little to target, except maybe the g2 square.

I wish I'd gotten a chance to play it out, I thought it was a great example of how material is important, but other positional factors can sometimes be more important. I definitely think white is better here.
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