Quoted the OP that initiated this thread to maintain continuity after moving 165 earlier posts from BBV into this thread - 1/6/2014 - BobJoeJim

I was playing a guy who beat me earlier in the day. I ****ed up early and offered him a draw (lol). He declined and I won in 6 moves. Felt pretty good since he talked trash after his first win, while I chatted nothing. He instantly offered rematch and I declined. lulz.

I played black, 10 minute game:

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Nf6
4.Ng5 (I offered the draw prior to this move -->) Nxe4
5.Nxf7 Qf6
6.Nxh8 Qxf2#

It played out great for me, and I honestly didn't even know I was about to get Mate even after my 5th move. I just knew it was a good spot for my queen to be in and was more concerned with damage control. Then when I went for my 6th move I realized this was an easy mate.

We both suck if you can't tell

What should my 4th move have been?

What should White's 6th move have been?

4. ... d5 is normal, but Nxe4 isn't actually completely unheard of at lower levels of play. Double edged, and probably not sound (you won't see masters trying it often) but as you saw it gives white the opportunity to go wrong. And the chess.com opening database actually shows it being played three times at the master level, with black winning all three. I would recommend just d5 though (not that this in any way guarantees a simple position - all the variations of the two-knights defense after 4. Ng5 are crazy tactical, don't play 3. ... Nf6 unless you're prepared for those complications).

6. 0-0 is probably fine for white, as played.

Edit: By the way, if your opponent had played 5. Nxe4, how would you have responded? Do you see why you haven't dropped a piece in that line?

Yeah I like your d5 suggestion there. I didn't even consider that. My pawn play is pretty crappy for sure. I greatly undervalue my pawns, as most crummy players probably do. A lot of the pawn moves are not immediately intuitive to me.

As played, if White 0-0, then do I take his knight with my queen? It's a free piece, unless he then takes my queen with his bishop, and I take his bishop with King. Would trading my Q for his N+B be a good trade there?

5. Ne4... if he plays that and takes my Knight then I play d5 and put pressure on 2 of his pieces, with that d5 square being protected by my queen if he takes my pawn with his bishop.

When I get to my computer I'll respond to your other post and help you there, but for now you ABSOLUTELY need to know the relative value of the pieces. We measure in pawns (all approximately of course, but you should likely not deviate for a long time):

pawn = 1 pawn
knight = 3 pawns
bishop = 3 pawns
rook = 5 pawns
queen = 9 pawns
king = infinite

Your only real mistake was offering a draw after 3 moves. Where's the fun in that?

I definitely would NOT trade Q for N+B here (or almost anywhere, unless there's a very specific tactical continuation to immediately justify it). The basic piece value "point count" check works pretty well here, the queen is normally worth about nine "points", and bishops and knights are only three "points" each. That point count is only a starting point, and at more advanced levels you'll find all kinds of exceptions, but at your current level you can probably afford to take the point count as gospel when evaluating unbalanced trades for now. Rooks are 5, pawns 1, by the way, if you're not familiar with this concept already.

5. Nxe5 d5! is correct to win back the piece with the pawn fork.

This reminds me of a tournament game I lost once after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4 4.Bxf7 Kf7 5.Ne4 Nc6? 6.Qf3 Kg8?? 7.Ng5 resigns. (By the way, I was rated about 2000 at the time :-( )

Strangely enough, this position can be reached by transposition after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Nxe4 5.Bxf7 Ke7 6.Ne4 Kf7 7.Qf3 Kg8 8.Ng5.

Of course 6./7.Ke8 is correct and maybe Black is not doing that badly.. Also in the 2nd move order, there's a good chance that White can improve, for example with 6.d4! instead of 6.Ne4.

I know the values, but I didn't know if it's a hard-fast rule to use for trade evaluations. Sounds like at my level it is. I also just felt like my queen was tied to his knight (or he's gonna get my rook eventually) and it feels like I'm on the defensive so early on that I didn't know if it would make sense to sacrifice some immediate EV to have more of a fresh start.

Heh true. Though I'm just starting and have had to resign in a couple games after misclicks (my mouse sucks and sometimes it'll drop my queen a square too early lol). Mostly I was annoyed that this guy trash-talked me after his first win and I felt like I was in an unrecoverable position (probably a dumb thought seeing as I'm playing a guy in the 600s).

Lesson learned: Keep playing. At this level I've played a couple games where I left my queen exposed (after a discovered attack by foe) and they failed to see it. Those damn bishops man they always **** me.

Actually I just realize that these two lines do not transpose because in the first there is a Knight on g1 and in the second it is on b1.

Uggg I'm getting better but I'm making big mistakes too often. I keep getting my queen and king skewered. My only saving grace is it's usually with his queen so I can just make an even trade. Every time I move my queen I need to make sure that if it's on a diagonal or orthogonal path from the king that the enemy can't skewer me on the next move. Need to actively think this. I just lost a game where I had Q, 2r, 2k to his 2r, 1k, 1b. And I had better position.

Another thing I keep doing is giving away pieces to discovered bishop attacks. This is like so common I don't get it. Enemy moves a pawn forward that was blocking his bishop from my knight or something way across the board and I fail to even look for discovered attacks. Usually I'm pre-occupied by whatever his pawn is now threatening. On almost every move I'm forcing myself to identify where the 2 bishops are and just make sure I'm not in harm's way. This doesn't happen to me with the other offensive pieces for some reason.

No solution other than to practice these tactics to increase vision of them.

Also, standardizing your language will help with communication. Pieces are capitalized, and N is for knight, K for king (R for rook, B for bishop, and Q for queen of course). Pawns are lower case, as in e4 or c5.

A pin is when you attack a piece and a stronger piece is in the line of attack behind it. A skewer is when you attack a piece and a weaker one is in the line of attack behind it.

One other thing is the acronym LPDO - loose pieces drop off. If you have a piece that's undefended, you're at risk of losing it to some tactic in the future, such as a discovered bishop attack. So try not to have any loose, undefended pieces.

Thanks, I'll try to get my terminology better. I knew right after I posted that I shouldn't have written "2k". Main point is I should have killed him for an easy win and ****ed it up by being careless.

You have to practice "skewers" and "discovered attack" tactics until you see them on the board as instantly as you see the piece itself. That sounds like an exaggeration. It's not.

Yeah, I am improving slowly. Like in late-game when he's got a knight left I'm better at keeping my attack pieces such that he can't fork me.

My mid-game pawn strategy has come a long way. I used to have no idea how to use the pawns and would take his pawn or trade pawns if it was available. Now I realize and understand why that can be stupid strategy. It's better to let his own pawns block his attack pieces. Or when he moves a pawn forward hoping I'll take it and I simply either move mine up or let him take mine on its current square if those are better options. Basically identifying his trap/motive and being patient and not falling for it. Feels good though.

Understanding end-game pawn strategy when we're both down to a bishop or something is important and something I need to do. Like when I've got a wall of 3 pawns and he's got a matching wall on his side, how to go about getting to the other side and in which order to advance which pawns and how to protect them. That seems complicated to me but it would help if I knew this stuff like the back of my hand, especially in the timed games. Instead of "Welp, I'm crunched on time - let's just see how it shakes out".

I just won my 7th game in a row and my rating it up to 800. Yay!

Here was a fun game I played tonight. I'm white. Check it out starting with black's 15.b5 threatening my bishop.

No idea how I played this but I'll post my thoughts. I prefer my knights to my bishops but I want to end up with my bishop on b5 so I can pin his knight to his rook. Though I'm not sure this is good strategy since his bishop doesn't want to leave c8 anytime soon due to blocking my pawn. Anyway I sacrifice my knight so I can end up with my bishop on b5.

For some shocking reason he plays 16.a6 which is probably a massive blunder. I then play 17.Nd6 and fork his rook and bishop.

He plays 17. Rd8 which is another massive blunder. Well I'm a dummy and I'm still pre-occupied with my knight fork - so I'm looking around for almost 1 minute of a 10 minute game trying to figure out the best move with my knight. Then, of course I realize the correct play is 18. Cxd8=Q+ And my new Queen is completely safe! What a fun play this was. Thank God I looked around longer and realized "Derp" I can just take his rook. Total blank here. I'm not used to actually taking the 8th rank with a pawn. Anyway.

I then steal a bishop with 19th move. He doesn't take my knight so I use move 20 to get a safe check and discover my queen attack on his rook.

I take his rook, he takes my knight. I then start cleaning a bit and we make a trade and I eventually get him in CM, probably inefficiently.

Anyway this was a fun one. Let me know massive inefficiencies you spot. I'm a free member so I only get 1 computer analysis per week!

I would have much preferred to play 10. Bxd6. I love my 13.exd6 move. He scared my bishop but who cares? It's protected and I typically would trade a bishop for a knight anyway. And this way I get his pawn and put his queen in serious danger. I thought his 11.Qc7 was bad and now he's paying for it. So we end up trading Queens ...honestly when I saw him taking my bishop I didn't even look beyond that to see my queen was in danger. I could have taken his knight but I liked getting my pawn to the 7th rank. And simplifying the game since I tend to play slow.

Early on: In general, I'd rather develop the knights first (at least one). Bishops are more robust in their choice of squares in a d4/e4 pawn setup, so, to preserve flexibility, you don't need to commit to one ASAP; the knights, though, are generally best at c3/f3 and solidify your pawn center against any potential initiative-grabbing development moves.

10. b3 doesn't serve much of a discernible purpose, weakens your queenside, and traps the bishop. Be careful with moves that reduce your pieces' mobility this drastically. Note that all of your bishop's possible moves result in loss of material.

13. exd6 and 20. Ne7+ are cool moves on your part. They show you're getting better at tactics.

In positions where both sides castle on opposite sides, one common motif is to pawn storm the others' king--with solid piece backup, of course. This usually isn't as viable with same-side castling because the pawn storm would dissolve your own king's protection. That dissolution is another reason 10. b3 isn't great; with it, Black's queenside pawn push has to travel less distance to open gaps for ESTABLISHING blow open your king shield. It's also why--instead of 11. Rhe1 and especially 12. e5, where you eventually lose a pawn (and your positional advantage) after a correct response--I'd rather keep the rook on the h-file where it consolidates a potential h4-h5-h6 / g4-g5 storm. You can immediately win a pawn and save your c4 bishop with 11. Bxd6. If Black went for counterplay in the center via a pawn push (c5 or e5), you'd be able to grab a strong centralized outpost for your knight. The strategic thought the Rhe1/e5 pairing signals is sophisticated by 800-level standards, though, so that's a plus.

I'd've preferred not to trade queens in that position. With them on the board, your huge spatial/developmental advantage can be converted into a strong kingside attack. Without them, your setup is fairly innocuous and Black can more easily neutralize.

After his 16th/17th moves, you have a huge edge and convert decisively, so wp there--winning won games is an incredibly important skill.

None of your inefficiencies were massive by the standards of the 800–1200 level.

Funny game, some big blunders in there from black esp. when losing queen. But saw a way to end it 10 moves earlier:

... 19. black goes F.5
if white do 20. Bishop c.3 -> e.5
black has to do K.H8
and white got a CM with N.e7

What is this E4D4 opening called?, also used this opening when first starting out online

Thanks for the input, guys! Really enjoyed reading these. Honestly I didn't even recognize Bc4-c6 as a move. If I had, I probably would have played it but I like the way it played out where I used the knight to check him then take his rook.

I did see I could have finished him a move sooner at the end by simply bringing my queen down to f6, leaving him only 1 move with his pawn before I end it with g5. Getting my rook involved was just a waste of time.

Rei, I agree with your assessment of my 10th move b3. At this level it's hard to recognize when I should worry about protecting the King or not. And I got panicky with his queen on b-file and a straight pawn wall. It is clear to me, though, that he's not doing any damage with his queen alone there and he's got no viable backup any time soon so he's not breaking down that wall anytime soon. I should have been more aggressive here.

10. Rhe1 happens when I'm not really sure what my next move is (see also: 10.b3), and I simply try to make my opening look like the "ideal" low-level opening. But yeah I don't really love it. I've got rooks on both central files but I've got 2 other pieces in the way, not to mention he's got a lot of weapons across the board so I don't see myself coordinating a great rook attack anytime soon.

BTW, is there a list here of everyone's rating? The golf forum has everyone's handicap listed and updated regularly. Was just wondering.

There have been some attempts to have people list their ratings in the past, but the problem is that this is an international internet forum, so people's ratings come from a million different sources.

A chess.com rating, versus a USCF rating, versus a FIDE rating, versus an ICC rating, versus a PlayChess rating, versus a FICS rating, all mean completely different things, since chess rating formulas are entirely relative to the player pool being rated. Plus all of these ratings fluctuate much more rapidly than a golf handicap. So maintaining a list of everyone's rating that has *any* meaning at all would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

I'm an unreal idiot. Just donked a game where I was one move away from CM due to a misclick.

Went to take his blocker with my queen then realized taking it with my rook was CM. Not paying attention, I drop my queen back down on what I thought was its original square but no, I dropped it one square away. He skewers that very rook on the next move by checking me with his queen then I'm basically losing pieces and time at this point and just resign. Unreal moron here. Typically I move the piece off the board and let go of the clicker so it automatically returns to its original spot.

JFC. 2 losses in a row. The other one I donked away my queen early by putting him in check and not even noticing his knight could just take me. This was like 4 plays into the game. Pay attention you dumbass!

My brain isn't working today.

Just lost a game where I had an extra Queen and extra Knight. He had 6 minutes left, I had 1:41. Was so occupied with CMing him that I didn't even realize my King couldn't escape a simple Rook advancing to the 1st rank. My queen was on 2nd rank forever and had that square guarded diagonally, then I brought my Queen way up to the 6th rank and his next move was CM.

I keep losing to people I should beat because of really stupid mistakes. And I take too long as it seems everyone I play (even if they are worse than me) have like 7 minutes left at the end of the game.

SP:LJFJFDPOSGHPSJHLSKJFLD Probably doesn't help that I'm watching football and drinking.

You should play games at longer time controls (and get a better mouse, so misclicks don't end up wasting that extra time).

~10-minute games are a lot less conducive to improvement than even 20- to 30-minute ones. 5-10 minute games are the domain of frustratingly dumb mistakes. The great thing about longer time controls is you can practice and instinctualize important thought processes, such as doing CCT checks (surveying all checks, captures, and threats for both sides before continuing with strategic goals).

Yeah I should probably switch to the 15/10 format.

do it, was surprised how much better I played compared to 5 and 10 min games

Just lost another game being dumb. I try playing the 15/10 games but it takes forever to match so sometimes I just play the 10 minute again.

Anyway dude was like 720 and I was about 800. He was playing much faster than me and I felt he had a better position early so I traded a couple (equal) pieces to shorten the game so I didn't lose on time. Not much was happening then I made a great pawn play and opened up the entire right side of the board for my queen and rook and had him in a bad spot where I skewered his queen (safely) behind his king (though his King would be able to get my rook). Well I didn't like that so I put him in check again with my Queen (but rook was diagonal to him) and yeah... he just stole my queen. I had like 1:30 left and just resigned. Sigh. It's unbelievable how careless I am with the Queen. I still may not have won due to time but I really hate making these stupid ass mistakes. Especially in the endgame when I can try for a CM.