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... e5 in the Closed Sicilian ... e5 in the Closed Sicilian

12-14-2009 , 03:15 AM
I am rated about 1700 elo. I prefer playing open games and am trying to develop a repertoire which involves as little theory as possible. To this end I recently picked up John Emms' "Attacking With 1. e4" and am learning his repertoire. He recommends the Closed Sicilian, which I have never played before. Most of the section is taken up with lines after:

1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. g3 g6

The problem with this is that I am finding that virtually nobody under 1800 elo actually plays g6. Today I faced this:

1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. g3 e5
4. Bg2 Nf6

f4 immediately seems sensible, but what should the long term plan be? Should I be castling K-side or Q-side? Trying for a K-side pawn storm, or attempting to break up Black's Maroczy bind-like structure?
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-14-2009 , 04:10 AM
if you're trying to play open games, why are you playing the closed sicilian?
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-14-2009 , 04:26 AM
try g2-g3, k-castle followed by d3, h3, moving your knigt away and f4-f5-g4 etc
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-14-2009 , 04:34 AM
I'd slow down and look at the immediate before going for some long abstract plan. The first thing I'd look at is what the downsides of e5 are and why it's not that common. Well the obvious reason seems to be that there is now a huge gaping hole on d5. As white I'd play to exploit this. It's not entirely clear where your g1 knight belongs yet so I think d3 is the move, freeing your bishop - perhaps looking for Bg5. Black can then play Be7 simply developing his bishop and also stopping Bg5 as black can then immediately equalize with Nxe4.

And then you just play chess. I mean with the closed sicilian you're not aiming for an advantage. You're just saying you want an equalish game where you both can play chess. And that's what you've gotten. Maybe then you get something like:

5. d3 Be7 6. Nf3 d6 7. Bg5 O-O 8. Bxf6 Bxf6 9. Nd5 Be6

Now white can play c3 aiming to gain some control of the d4 square, maybe push d4 himself at some time.

And now you both just play chess. Maybe black tries Be7 to play f5, white can play c2 connecting the rooks, keeping his castling options open. If black then plays f5 immediately, maybe white tries h4 himself gaining control of the g5 square for his knigget and again - they just play chess.

So to sum it up, just play chess. Don't try to force things into some preconceived plan, go with the flow. Maybe it'll end up in a same side castling slow positional struggle, or maybe you'll both castle opposite and start throwing everything you have at one another. Who knows. You definitely can't tell (or force) that on move 5.

And my 'pretend' game:

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 Nf6 5. d3 Be7 6. Nf3 d6 7. Bg5 O-O 8. Bxf6
Bxf6 9. Nd5 Be6 10. c3 Be7 11. Qc2 f5 12. h4
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-15-2009 , 01:13 AM
Not sure what the big deal is here...

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 Nf6 5. d3 (clearly best) d6 6. Nge2 (6. f4 and 7. Nf3 is also fine, but I like this a bit more due to keeping the f-file open) Be7 7. 0-0 0-0 8. f4 has happened in 10 games, according to Mega2007. White scores 80%.

Basically, where's Black's counterplay? Nothing on the Queenside (going to be hard to get b5 in), nothing in the center (which is now sealed), and white has free reign on the Kingside.

Just a nice happy position for White.
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-15-2009 , 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
I am rated about 1700 elo. I prefer playing open games and am trying to develop a repertoire which involves as little theory as possible. To this end I recently picked up John Emms' "Attacking With 1. e4" and am learning his repertoire. He recommends the Closed Sicilian, which I have never played before. Most of the section is taken up with lines after:

1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. g3 g6

The problem with this is that I am finding that virtually nobody under 1800 elo actually plays g6. Today I faced this:

1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. g3 e5
4. Bg2 Nf6

f4 immediately seems sensible, but what should the long term plan be? Should I be castling K-side or Q-side? Trying for a K-side pawn storm, or attempting to break up Black's Maroczy bind-like structure?
see some games of michael adams and nigel short here www.chesslive.de

move those

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3

and put white field adams and search

they played a nice system adams even against kasparov in linares 99
and this one defeating Anand in 98
http://chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1419104


pretty simple system for white


1.e4
2.Nc3
3.g3
4.Bg2
5.d3
6.Be3
7.Qd2 (threatening Bh6 which can be played next)
8.Nge2
9.h3(maybe h3 before)
10.0-0

sometimes white can bigcastle(most time not,tho)(Very rarely its good, possibly only if black also big castles or plays some stupid line with b6 that slows his pawn attack)

white tries to play Rae1 then f4(or simply Nf4-Nd5) and if black plays b5-b4 Nd1 is fine... then sometimes even ive seen from Short Ne2 to c1 to defend a2 if Qa5 is played, or something like this.

then c3 can be played

white doesnt have necessarily to play f4 sometimes g4-Ng3 is better or Nf4-Nd5

but well, be a man.

study a proper repertoire. its much more powerful believe me. forget this "as little theory as possible" u can have a solid repertoire without tons of study throw that book in your trash can

a wise american oldman once said "Chess is theory."

Last edited by bradpittbr; 12-15-2009 at 03:11 AM.
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-15-2009 , 03:17 AM
and of course f4 is a long term plan, dont play it quick and sometimes dont even play it.


his 4...Nf6 is just awkward

black should prefer Nge7 to play f5

ur plan against it should be 5.d3 6.Nge2 7.h3

now maybe 0-0 and f4

or Be3 before f4... im not sure

ifhe played 4...Nf6 d6 Be7 Be6 u have to play Nd5 to avoid his d5


but to be very honest i think the best way to exploit 4...Nf6 is probably a quick f4 followed by pawn attack.(h3-g4-f5-h4-g5) (g6-Nge7 would avoid this f5 from white)

5.d3 d6
6.f4 Bg4?!
7.Qd2!

then h3 g4 etc...

Last edited by bradpittbr; 12-15-2009 at 03:40 AM.
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-15-2009 , 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by s33w33d
Not sure what the big deal is here...

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 Nf6 5. d3 (clearly best) d6 6. Nge2 (6. f4 and 7. Nf3 is also fine, but I like this a bit more due to keeping the f-file open) Be7 7. 0-0 0-0 8. f4 has happened in 10 games, according to Mega2007. White scores 80%.

Basically, where's Black's counterplay? Nothing on the Queenside (going to be hard to get b5 in), nothing in the center (which is now sealed), and white has free reign on the Kingside.

Just a nice happy position for White.
I wouldn't put too much weight on database statistics for a position like this.

You're not going to see too many strong players in this position since it requires some fairly mediocre opening play on both sides. You get quite a different picture of the opening when you look at strong games with it. For instance if you restrict it to 2300+ there's only 3 games in megabase 2009, white lost 1 and drew the other 2. Capablanca also suffered one his very few defeats, as white no less, from this exact position.

It's not all rosey for white. He has a terrible light bishop and has a dangerously weakened kingside which was the downfall of the super solid Capablanca - and actually most everybody in this variation. Black is able to get his queenside play going immediately with Rb8 when b5 is unstoppable, and white constantly has to be aware of possibly facing a kingside/central counter attack if he overextends himself over there.

White's position isn't too bad by any means, but I think it's far from what he could hope for out of the opening.
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-15-2009 , 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dire
I wouldn't put too much weight on database statistics for a position like this.

You're not going to see too many strong players in this position since it requires some fairly mediocre opening play on both sides. You get quite a different picture of the opening when you look at strong games with it. For instance if you restrict it to 2300+ there's only 3 games in megabase 2009, white lost 1 and drew the other 2. Capablanca also suffered one his very few defeats, as white no less, from this exact position.

It's not all rosey for white. He has a terrible light bishop and has a dangerously weakened kingside which was the downfall of the super solid Capablanca - and actually most everybody in this variation. Black is able to get his queenside play going immediately with Rb8 when b5 is unstoppable, and white constantly has to be aware of possibly facing a kingside/central counter attack if he overextends himself over there.

White's position isn't too bad by any means, but I think it's far from what he could hope for out of the opening.
No doubt, but I always find using a database is helpful, especially when he's asking about players at the 1700 level, which is where those databases will generally have games in such positions.

Either way, the plan is pretty simple (if you're playing the closed sicilian, you're going to go f4 and 0-0 and play for an attack anyway), and Black is in a position where it's hard to find a plan. Good stuff all around.
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote
12-15-2009 , 05:31 PM
i disagree about "Black is in a position where it's hard to find a plan". if you go straightforward f4-f5 then h3, g4-g5 etc - it's quite easy to defend against it. Play h6-nh7 and you can't get thrwo the g5 field. At the same time black has a good play on the queenside.
... e5 in the Closed Sicilian Quote

      
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