It surprises me that on this forum there is very little discussion of online backgammon for real-money. Why is that? What can be done to improve the games that are offered so that you would play?

Which are the best sites that offer backgammon online?

What are the best online tournaments?

What levels of rake are beatable?

What is done well with online backgammon?

What is done badly?

Are bots an issue? With users able to choose to play medium / fast speed games does that adequately safeguard against bot usage? What else can be done?

What can / should sites do to improve the state of online backgammon?

What changes would you make if you were running an online backgammon site?

At it's absolute heart, the simple fact is no amateur player will trust it in my humble opinion.

There is no adequate bot protection either available or implementable - even if there were, I'm wholly unconvinced amateurs could be led to believe in it in significant enough numbers to make backgammon viable as a deposit driven peer to peer game.

It's a confusing, cruel and bad value slot machine as long as the sword of Damacles that bots represent hangs over it.

In my view, even worse than the threat of the bots is the rake, which on every site I know about is absurdly high -- so high that the game is essentially unbeatable.

The 'right' way to use online backgammon is to play for free on a site that allows you to record your session and matches. Then download the logs and use it for study material to improve your over the board game.

Poker is a fine game for online play: a relatively low rake, plenty of players, and no rating system that prevents players from getting games. Backgammon is very different -- it's a game that's suited for live play, not online play.

When you say bots do you mean instances when users are replicating the game moves into GNU and then making the recommended move (ie a human using software)? Surely, playing fast (or even medium) speed games can counter this as your opponent won't have time to replicate the move / take in the info and make it in the game in time?

Or are you concerned that there are some bots being run on sites without human intervention? I know that one operator actually publicly has a 'begginer bot' / 'pro bot' listed in the lobby for customers to play against.

Why are you so sure that nothing can be done to prevent any bot-abuse? How are you so sure that it's such a big issue? Have you played online and felt that opponents were 'too good' and feared they were using software?

What level of rake do you think is beatable (for cash games and then for tournaments)?

There are some sites with tournaments with a 10% rake but who offer guarantees which are rarely met and so the overlays compensate for the rake.

In terms of cash games, these tend to vary depending on stake. The level of rake for online poker tends to be approx 5% for cash games. The level of rake for backgammon online is not that different. Some sites have rake starting at 7.5% going down to 5.5% for higher-stakes games. How / why are these levels unbeatable? Some backgammon specific sites may offer lower rake but then tougher competition. If a sports-book operator provides backgammon and offers this level of rake, due to the softness of the player pool I certainly think that the games are beatable...

Puzzling. You seem to know a great deal about online backgammon, but insist on peppering us with questions as though you were a newbie.

If you believe the games are beatable then go beat them. I'm not stopping you. I personally think trying to make money at online BG is a waste of time, but if you disagree then go to it.

Apologies, I did not want my post to come off as a bombardment of questions - more as a starting point for a discussion around the state of online backgammon and what can be done to improve it.

It seems you, as well as many other backgammon enthusiasts, are not happy with the status quo of online backgammon. Therefore, I think that the positive thing to do is to start a discussion about what we are not happy about / changes that would improve the landscape. Wouldn't it be great if there were online sites on which backgammon enthusiasts could play real-money games with secure knowledge that they are protected against bots and in games in which they can beat the rake. I think that we're going to get to that place sooner by having open discussions.

A backgammon board is simple enough that you could bot it by literally watching the screen with a webcam to automatically input the moves on a second computer for analysis, so software solutions to cheating are out. So you're stuck with ER cutoffs at which point people can figure out what they are and make enough errors to play near the minimum allowable. Unless something analogous to 1 0 chess catches on in BG, online money play is just pointless.

Bot are a big issue, and rake also is crazy.
I remember in 2002 /2003 when gamesgrid launched the ejackpot there was a lotta action (lotta compared today). the problem was the use of the bot for sure, we had no timer action so the suspect was always on. GG usually was investigating on some account of "unknown" people playing very low error rate. people were asked for live analysis, identity confirmation etc. I remember an italian guy(that i knew for being a medium player 5/6 er rate on snowie) that when playin for money instantly start to play as an extraterrestrial. After investigation his account was closed , and we knew he was playin with a friend aside suugestin moves using snowie.
Another issue was peolple sharing accounts, so you thoght you was playing against mraverage as usual , but that day Morten Holm was playin that account. Lot of danish was doing that at that time on GG.
I don't remember the rake we paid there, but GG was a subscription paying site so it could be different. Right now rake is absolutely crazy. I play on bgroom and sometimes i laugh at what they take apart from games. I cannot understand how can they hope to survive.

On poker sites its about 5% of the pot, on the backgammon sites its the numbers you were saying but that's from EACH player then deducted from the winner. So 7.5% is actually 15% rake. Add to this a minimum that some sites use and sometimes it's a 25% rake on small cash games.

I think Robertie's advice on using the sites where you can download the game and analyze the game is spot on, that's how I use it and it's interesting way to study because you can get experience playing some odd positions that arise from the strange choices people make and play positions that bot's wouldn't get into.

One thing I look for is sites that offer freeroll tourney's. I can cash a few times and start a small bank roll and then play the ripoff rakes and not worry about it so much.

Bill Robertie is correct - it's very hard to make money from online backgammon.

I consider backgammon a far more enjoyable game than poker but as I live in a country that is geographically isolated - well online poer has it's attractiions.

I am also finding it hard as there is only one chouette in our town and some one keeping records informed me that for the last 50 sessions (1 session a week) I have been the big winner in 48 and only lost 2 times. The stakes are low but I am fast becoming not welcome (I try to be a gracious winner).

Although I love backgammon (and work very hard at improving) I will probably start playing poker online for money (ironically using resources like the Harrington books on cash games co written by Bill). Fortunately my business is going well so Poker is a backup plan but I'm not sure that I would recommend anyone learn backgammon if making money was there goal.

This is an important point. When you practice exclusively against the bots and then go to play live BG, most people notice that their error rate rises substantially. That's because you're now playing a lot of positions that you never see against the bots. You're like a golfer who learns how to play on his home course and then has to adjust when moving to some other course. In some sense it becomes a whole new game.

I think this is why a lot of the old-time players like Kit Woolsey and Mike Senkiewicz do well in modern tournaments. They had tons of practice in the old days playing not only fish but also playing weird complicated positions. That background serves them well in live play.

Is that right?

Player1 pays $1 + 5% rake = $1.05
Player2 pays $1 + 5% rake = $1.05

Total paid is $2.10, of which 0.10 is rake. 0.10/2 = 5%

Isn't this how it is done?

$1 bet from each player, rake is 7.5% per player. Player A beats Player B:

Player B loses $1

Player A wins $1.85, his initial $1 plus the $1 from his opponent minus the 7.5% due from each player.

This is how's its done on all the BG sites I've seen.

You're describing 92.5c + 7.5c which is 19% rake, imo (7.5/92.5 = .19)